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Old February 23 2009, 12:24 PM   #331
Claudia
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
I regret it that SCE won`t be continued
SCE is finished? Really?

I couldn`t find any mentioning of Miral, which is at least something.
Miral's also listed in that confirmed casualty report as Miral Paris.

Actually, I'm quite looking forward to VOY's Full Circle... and I'm not counting out B'Elanna until I see her dead body.

Even though, I'm looking forward to VOY focusing on Chakotay and Paris - 2 characters that got way too little screen time so far.
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Old February 23 2009, 12:32 PM   #332
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

I just had another look: You are right!

I am not happy.

Yes, SCE was created as an e-book series and because e-books didn`t sell well enough also SCE won`t be continued. On the other hand, the trade paperback reprints will still be out, which is at least something. Hopefully, if these books sell well, there will be more original stories eventually.
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Old February 23 2009, 04:00 PM   #333
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
The creation of the Typhon Pact makes a lot of sense in a time when the Federation, the Klingons and so many other powers and civilizations are struggling with the aftermath of the devastating Borg attack. The foundation of the Typhon Pact certainly hasn`t the idealistic background of the Federation and Starfleet.
Is that necessarily so? Let's compare. The Federation was founded by four powers that had historically had hostile or prickly relations with each other and with their neighbors. In response to a threat from a hostile power, the Romulans, they formed a coalition out of the belief that cooperation would benefit them more than conflict. They began with much mutual suspicion and xenophobia, but their cooperation helped them overcome it and become more strongly united.

The Typhon Pact was founded by six powers that have historically had hostile or prickly relations with the Federation and occasionally with each other. In the wake of a threat from a hostile power, the Borg, they formed a coalition out of the belief that cooperation would benefit them more than conflict. They begin with much mutual suspicion and xenophobia, but... well, who knows?
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Old February 23 2009, 04:16 PM   #334
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Typhon Pact was founded by six powers that have historically had hostile or prickly relations with the Federation and occasionally with each other. In the wake of a threat from a hostile power, the Borg
Borg? I thought it was the Federation that was considered the hostile power by the various Typhon Pact members, and so they formed the Pact with the purpose of combating that power.

The Federation, on the other hand, was formed by various states which had *already* fought a devastating war with the Romulans (okay, it was mostly Earth, but the other powers were affected as well) and thus joined up to defend themselves against *future* attacks - i.e. the Federation members were not planning further attacks against the Romulans...
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Old February 23 2009, 05:13 PM   #335
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The Typhon Pact was founded by six powers that have historically had hostile or prickly relations with the Federation and occasionally with each other. In the wake of a threat from a hostile power, the Borg
Borg? I thought it was the Federation that was considered the hostile power by the various Typhon Pact members, and so they formed the Pact with the purpose of combating that power.
You are remembering the scene where the Tholian Ambassador describes their reasons for founding the Pact through conflict-colored glasses.

The Tholian Ambassador said that they joined together because they had realized that Bacco was right: They would be stronger together, united, than apart. She also said that the Pact states chose not to join in an alliance with the Federation because they believed that if they did so, the Federation would be a dominant, unequal partner in such an alliance, and that they risked seeing their own cultures subsumed by Federation cultural values. Which, sure enough, seems to be happening to the Klingons (their end of expansionism at the end of AotF), Ferengi (equal rights for women, taxes for social programs), and Cardassians (assumption of democracy instead of a military dictatorship).

At no point did the Ambassador say that the Pact considered the Federation or Klingons to be hostile powers. In point of fact, the Pact made it clear that it objected to the actions of its members who had attacked the UFP and Klingons. Their intent was not to say, "You are our enemy and we are yours." Their intent was to say, "You are no longer the most powerful state in known space, and we are now your equal in power."

The Federation, on the other hand, was formed by various states which had *already* fought a devastating war with the Romulans (okay, it was mostly Earth, but the other powers were affected as well) and thus joined up to defend themselves against *future* attacks - i.e. the Federation members were not planning further attacks against the Romulans...
You know that. I know that. But from the Romulans' or Klingons' point of view, the creation of the Federation could easily have been seen as a provocative action taken by its members as a way of combining their power for a conflict with the Klingon and/or Romulan Empires -- you know, the same way you are presuming that the Pact was founded to combine power for a conflict against the Federation.
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Old February 23 2009, 05:25 PM   #336
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power. The Pact nations want to counter the UFP's power, but they want to do so by providing an alternative, by creating a nation that's equal or superior in strength, resources, and influence. It's not just about one side shooting at the other side. There's been enough of that already in recent Trek lit.
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Old February 23 2009, 05:36 PM   #337
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Is that necessarily so? Let's compare. The Federation was founded by four powers that had historically had hostile or prickly relations with each other and with their neighbors. In response to a threat from a hostile power, the Romulans, they formed a coalition out of the belief that cooperation would benefit them more than conflict.
I don't think that holds up to the evidence we've seen on Enterprise. Earth and Vulcan were uncomfortable allies. The Vulcans and Andorians had a long-running conflict, but as soon as Earth learned about it, they did their best to maintain peaceful relations with the Andorian Empire. As for the Tellarites, they came across as a fairly minor power whose conflicts never went beyond minor border skirmishes. And it was the initial efforts to create a more lasting peace among these nations that inspired the Romulans to interfere, not the other way around.

The Typhon Pact was founded by six powers that have historically had hostile or prickly relations with the Federation and occasionally with each other. In the wake of a threat from a hostile power, the Borg, they formed a coalition out of the belief that cooperation would benefit them more than conflict. They begin with much mutual suspicion and xenophobia, but... well, who knows?
See, I'm not sure that the Typhon Pact was a reaction to the Borg, per se, as much as a reaction to the potential power vacuum the Borg left in the wake of the invasion. And the fact that the first acts of at least two Pact members, once they thought they had this alliance at their backs, was to go on the offensive against their old enemies, tends to make me far less charitable than Pran is toward the Pact and their motivations.
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Old February 23 2009, 05:56 PM   #338
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power. The Pact nations want to counter the UFP's power, but they want to do so by providing an alternative, by creating a nation that's equal or superior in strength, resources, and influence. It's not just about one side shooting at the other side. There's been enough of that already in recent Trek lit.
I can see a war of ideologies definitely shaping up and perhaps the Pact nations meddling with potential Federation allies who have conservative blocks that would likely be opposed to a strengthening of ties with Earth, such as the Cardassians and the Ferengi.
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Old February 23 2009, 05:58 PM   #339
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Sci wrote: View Post
You are remembering the scene where the Tholian Ambassador describes their reasons for founding the Pact through conflict-colored glasses.
Perhaps. But I consider that much safer than viewing it through *rose*-colored glasses. Makes it easier to prepare for the inevitable attack. Especially in such a dangerous universe.

Christopher wrote: View Post
The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power.
I'm still not convinced there is a difference. Explain to me why there should be.
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Old February 23 2009, 06:21 PM   #340
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
You are remembering the scene where the Tholian Ambassador describes their reasons for founding the Pact through conflict-colored glasses.
Perhaps. But I consider that much safer than viewing it through *rose*-colored glasses. Makes it easier to prepare for the inevitable attack. Especially in such a dangerous universe.
You're still assuming that an attack is inevitable. What if it's not? What if an attack only ends up occurring because the Federation leaders decide, like you, to presume hostile motives without evidence and treat the Pact accordingly?

Quite frankly, Babaganoosh, if you were the Federation President right now, based on your statements, I would be accusing you of being the hostile and belligerent party. You are the one who is assuming that an attack is inevitable, you are the one who is refusing to acknowledge the internal conflicts within the Pact that undermined the Tholian Assembly's goal of hurting the Federation, and you are the one who is refusing to accept the idea that the Pact is behaving honestly towards its neighbors.

No one's saying that the Pact should be viewed with rose-colored glasses. But they shouldn't be viewed with blood-colored glasses, either.

Christopher wrote: View Post
The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power.
I'm still not convinced there is a difference. Explain to me why there should be.
Because the goal is to avoid starting a war, not provoke it. The goal is to create opportunities for peaceful coexistence, not to provoke your neighbors into feeling like they have to attack you because if they don't, you'll attack them.
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Old February 23 2009, 06:38 PM   #341
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power.
I'm still not convinced there is a difference. Explain to me why there should be.
"Should be?" What a strange choice of words. Surely you aren't proposing that war is the only kind of interaction that competing nations "should be" permitted to have?

America and Japan have been economic rivals for decades, despite being political allies. Many Europeans see America as a rival, finding our geopolitical and cultural dominance to be troubling, but they're still our allies rather than our enemies. Contrary to the Cold War fantasies of American red-baiters, the Soviet and Chinese Communist Parties couldn't stand each other, disagreed with each other's interpretations of Marxism, and competed with one another for leadership of the communist movement, and yet they never went to war with one another. There are many forms of rivalry other than warfare. Conflict or competition can be waged through economics, diplomacy, political maneuvering, cultural influence, scientific and technological innovation, etc.
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Old February 23 2009, 06:45 PM   #342
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The one thing we know for sure about the Typhon Pact at this point is that it's a rival power. That's not necessarily the same thing as an enemy power.
I'm still not convinced there is a difference. Explain to me why there should be.
"Should be?" What a strange choice of words. Surely you aren't proposing that war is the only kind of interaction that competing nations "should be" permitted to have?

America and Japan have been economic rivals for decades, despite being political allies. Many Europeans see America as a rival, finding our geopolitical and cultural dominance to be troubling, but they're still our allies rather than our enemies. Contrary to the Cold War fantasies of American red-baiters, the Soviet and Chinese Communist Parties couldn't stand each other, disagreed with each other's interpretations of Marxism, and competed with one another for leadership of the communist movement, and yet they never went to war with one another. There are many forms of rivalry other than warfare. Conflict or competition can be waged through economics, diplomacy, political maneuvering, cultural influence, scientific and technological innovation, etc.
Exactly. America and Europe may be rivals, but we're also friends and allies who have and will continue to fight and die for one-another. Rivalry is not the same thing as hostility, and it's a mistake to approach foreign affairs with a "with-us-or-against-us" mentality.
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Old February 23 2009, 08:14 PM   #343
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Sci wrote: View Post
You're still assuming that an attack is inevitable. What if it's not? What if an attack only ends up occurring because the Federation leaders decide, like you, to presume hostile motives without evidence and treat the Pact accordingly?
I'm not saying the Federation should mount a pre-emptive strike (like Pran's student did). I'm saying they should be *ready* if the Pact launches one. A purely defensive strategy. There's nothing wrong with being prepared, is there?

Because the goal is to avoid starting a war, not provoke it. The goal is to create opportunities for peaceful coexistence, not to provoke your neighbors into feeling like they have to attack you because if they don't, you'll attack them.
And yet isn't that why the Pact was formed? They feel threatened by the Federation, so they joined together to resist the threat they perceive. Not in response to an attack that has already occurred, as is the case for the Federation which had its genesis in the wake of the Romulan War.

Now don't get me wrong, if it is possible for the Federation and the Pact to peacefully coexist, I'll be the first one in line to cheer for it. Perhaps there is. If there are things that even the Pact will not do, if there are (to borrow a concept from ST VI) "articles of interstellar law" to which both the Federation and the Pact must adhere, then I'm prepared to accept that. But I also do not think it unreasonable to be just a *tad* uneasy at all of this.

Oh, I admit, my own viewpoint is colored by the fact that my worldview is extremely linear. I don't believe in ambiguities. I fully admit this. I like to put it this way: my views are so black and white that they should be a zebra.

At no point did the Ambassador say that the Pact considered the Federation or Klingons to be hostile powers. In point of fact, the Pact made it clear that it objected to the actions of its members who had attacked the UFP and Klingons. Their intent was not to say, "You are our enemy and we are yours." Their intent was to say, "You are no longer the most powerful state in known space, and we are now your equal in power."
The ambassador not only conveniently dodged Bacco's mentioning of Sekki's crimes (Tezrene's response was your standard "you cannot PROVE anything" ), but also said that "by joining this Pact, we assure that it is *you* who are surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power." (emphasis mine) What other conclusion would you have me draw?
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Old February 23 2009, 09:37 PM   #344
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
You're still assuming that an attack is inevitable. What if it's not? What if an attack only ends up occurring because the Federation leaders decide, like you, to presume hostile motives without evidence and treat the Pact accordingly?
I'm not saying the Federation should mount a pre-emptive strike (like Pran's student did). I'm saying they should be *ready* if the Pact launches one. A purely defensive strategy. There's nothing wrong with being prepared, is there?
I've got no problem with that, but your language is extremely belligerent. You use terms that speak of the inevitability of conflict rather than mere possibility or even probability. You literally cannot seem to even process the idea of the Pact being anything other than an enemy.

Because the goal is to avoid starting a war, not provoke it. The goal is to create opportunities for peaceful coexistence, not to provoke your neighbors into feeling like they have to attack you because if they don't, you'll attack them.
And yet isn't that why the Pact was formed? They feel threatened by the Federation, so they joined together to resist the threat they perceive.
Actually, Tezrene's words were much simpler. She said that the Pact states recognized that they would be better off peacefully cooperating and united, but didn't wish to be subsumed to the Federation.

To put it another way:

The states of Europe have all realized that they are better off united than divided, but not a one of them wants to be subsumed into the United States as part of our Union. Does that mean that the members of the European Union are threatened by us and think of us as a threat? Or does it mean that they're trying to assert their independence from us?

If there are things that even the Pact will not do,
See, right there. "Things that even the Pact will not do." You're ascribing some fundamental malevolence to them that's not in evidence. "Things even the Pact will not do" implies that they've demonstrated a history of immorality and belligerence, that the Pact has already done horrible things and that you're looking for something so bad that even the Pact won't do it. That's the sort of belligerent language I'm talking about -- the assumption of animosity not in evidence.

The Pact's first official action upon coming into existence was to apologize for the actions of the Kinshaya. That doesn't imply an institutional pattern of hostility.

Oh, I admit, my own viewpoint is colored by the fact that my worldview is extremely linear. I don't believe in ambiguities. I fully admit this. I like to put it this way: my views are so black and white that they should be a zebra.
Which is absurd and the sort of viewpoint that should never, ever be allowed to color foreign policy. Foreign policy is built on nuance and shades of grey. A black-and-white worldview is actually deeply immoral in the world of international relations.

At no point did the Ambassador say that the Pact considered the Federation or Klingons to be hostile powers. In point of fact, the Pact made it clear that it objected to the actions of its members who had attacked the UFP and Klingons. Their intent was not to say, "You are our enemy and we are yours." Their intent was to say, "You are no longer the most powerful state in known space, and we are now your equal in power."
The ambassador not only conveniently dodged Bacco's mentioning of Sekki's crimes (Tezrene's response was your standard "you cannot PROVE anything" ),
And in doing so, she also made it clear that that action was undertaken by the Tholian Assembly, acting unilaterally, without the other Pact members.

but also said that "by joining this Pact, we assure that it is *you* who are surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power." (emphasis mine) What other conclusion would you have me draw?
I would have you draw the conclusion that the Tholian Assembly has hostile intent towards the Federation (tempered by their own inability to act on that intent) and that the other Pact members--particularly the Gorn Hegemony, with which the Federation has fairly good relations, especially given the treaty that Bacco signed with them on behalf of the Federation whilst Governor of Cestus--are probably going to end up reining them in. And I would have you draw the conclusion that Tezrene is not necessarily a reliable indicator of overall Pact policy, even if she is a reliable indicator of Tholian policy.

To put it another way: Would you hold the entire North Atlantic Treaty Organization responsible for the invasion of Iraq just because some of its members were responsible for it? Or would a rational foreign state recognize that NATO has its own internal divisions and that the less belligerent states in NATO have been working to bring the more belligerent ones in?

ETA:

If I'm President Bacco, one of the first things that I'm going to be doing right now is making sure that I find a way to reach out and continue to build a good relationship with the more pro-Federation wings of the Pact, especially the Romulan Star Empire and the Gorn. If I'm doing that, then that means that I give ammunition to the parts of the Pact that are more predisposed to lack hostile intent towards the Federation, giving them greater influence within the Pact and helping to undermines the Tholians' and Kinshaya's more belligerent platforms.
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Old February 23 2009, 10:29 PM   #345
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Re: A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

Sci wrote: View Post
Foreign policy is built on nuance and shades of grey. A black-and-white worldview is actually deeply immoral in the world of international relations.
Good thing I'm not a politician, then.
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