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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Kes V Seven of Nine
Kes 24 20.87%
7 of 9 67 58.26%
I liked them both equally 22 19.13%
I disliked them both equally 2 1.74%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 27 2009, 04:56 PM   #76
Guy Gardener
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

[quote=Lynx;2545888]
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

Except Janeway. She let Tuvix live.

Then Kes changed her mind.

That seems to be a motif.

In the middle of the night kes showing up and changing peoples minds since she did it in resolutions as well. Exactly how much telepathic "omphf" is she backing her arguments up with that the Captains of voyager dail their moral compasses 180 degrees to agree with Kes so often?

I'm not saying Kes is doing it on purpose mind you, but subconsciously and autonomically and subliminally she has to be right and her opinion weighs the most and resistance is futile.

Maybe?
Hmmmm.......I think that you have misunderstood the situation here.

It wasn't Kes who made the captain change her mind. It was The Doctor who all of a sudden found a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix and put everything back to normal. The lack of such a method was the reason why Janeway let Tuvix live in the first place and the discovery of such a method was the reason that she changed her mind.

But I can agree that Kes is good to persuade people, that's one of her charactersistics which I do find endearing.
I was in awe and a little disgusted last time i watched just a few months ago.

They figured out how to separate them, next scene Kathy says "when did this transporter accident become a person?", a scene later she asks Tuvix if she can murder him, he makes a decent argument for why she shouldn't.

then...

[Mess hall]
TUVIX: Kes, I need your help. I’ve just come from the Captain, and she’s thinking about forcing me to go through with the separation. If anybody can make a difference, Kes, it’s you. She’ll listen to you. We’ve helped each other through this and I know that you care about what happens to me. Please, Kes, you may be my only hope.
[Ready Room]
JANEWAY: Come in.
KES: Captain, Tuvix has asked me to speak to you on his behalf. But I can’t.
JANEWAY: He shouldn’t have put you in the middle of this.
KES: But I am in the middle. I have been since the moment of the accident. I don’t know how to say good bye to Neelix and Tuvok. I know this sounds horrible, and I feel so guilty for saying it, and Tuvix doesn’t deserve to die, but I want Neelix back.

So the scene with Janeway in her nighty was from earlier, my bad, but Kes pushed Janeway over the top with a decision which seemed to take her hours to make her mind up about, which means that she did seriously consider letting Tuvix live and kes might have had the power to push (nudge) the Captain other way if she had been so inclined or the tiny blonde girl would have remained nuetral if Tuvix hadn't tapped her mistaking the Ocampan for an ally.
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Old January 27 2009, 05:16 PM   #77
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.
I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.
Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.
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Old January 27 2009, 05:33 PM   #78
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Ezri II wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.
I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.
Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.
IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.
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Old January 27 2009, 06:07 PM   #79
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.
Kes had more character flaws then Neelix and I will support that idea. If Neelix left the show and we had to deal with Kes alone her character would not improve.

Was debating with myself who was the better character, Kes v Ezri and thinking about it with myself and others. Have to say Kes was the weaker character. As Kes as a character was flawed to a point it could not improve. The writters were free to bring in a character from the other side and they willfully gave us a weaker character called Kes.
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Old January 27 2009, 06:17 PM   #80
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

If it was so important that Kes and Neelix grow old together and die in each others wrinkled arms, and it's so hard to expand Kes' life expectancy, then why didn't they just shorten Nelix's life span? I mean he was looking at another 30 to 50 years of golden years after she passed on... 50 years without your one true love to rub your feet and tell you that your whiskers are pretty? Not a life worth living, surely?
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Old January 27 2009, 06:24 PM   #81
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post


Never said anything of the sort. Multiple actresses auditioned for Seven. Jeri turned the audition down 4 times. IIRC, Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it.

On "Boston Public," the role was written for Jeri.
Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".
So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.
If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.
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Old January 27 2009, 06:28 PM   #82
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Ezri II wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.
I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.
Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.
I strongly disagree here. I think both Kes and Neelix did contribute a lot to the show. Calling Kes "a doomed character" is wrong and seem like an after-construction. There were many directions in which they could have taken the character and it would have worked fine due to the characters fine qualities.

As for doomed characters, I must state that what Tuvok, Torres, Paris, Kim, Neelix and Chakotay became in the later seasons more personifies the word "doomed".

Exodus wrote:
IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.
Kes and Neelix actually broke up in season 3 so the "jealousy and stubborn streak" obviously ended without Kes having to leave. Besides that, I don't think that Neelix changed anything in the later seasons. he was still the same Neelix.

But if someone dislikes a character, it's always easy to blame that character for everything, even the weather.

And I think it was silly to dump Kes and Neelix. They should have been among the crew when Voyager returned to Earth. Kes was as eager to go to Earth as the rest of them and Neelix promised many times that he would never abandon Janeway. For some reasons, the writer did seem to "forget" that. But of course, they did have short memory.
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Old January 27 2009, 06:44 PM   #83
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".
So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.
If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.
That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.
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Old January 27 2009, 06:57 PM   #84
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.
If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.
That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.
What they did in "Fury" was worse than killing off the character.

And no, they shouldn't have "removed" her at all.

As for Neelix's leaving, it was unnecessary. That episode didn't serve any purpose. Besides that, finding a Talaxian colony so far from Talaxian space was ridiculous.
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Old January 27 2009, 07:05 PM   #85
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.
That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.
What they did in "Fury" was worse than killing off the character.

And no, they shouldn't have "removed" her at all.

As for Neelix's leaving, it was unnecessary. That episode didn't serve any purpose. Besides that, finding a Talaxian colony so far from Talaxian space was ridiculous.
"Homestead" serves as a conclusion to everything we're learned about Neelix after 7 years.
Maybe when you find someone worth marring you'll understand.

Finding Talaxians on the other side of their own quaderant is no more ridiculous than finding people from China living in New York City. History books are full of people from far away lands traveling an colonizing places half a world away.

As far a removing her, I trust the producers.
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Last edited by exodus; January 27 2009 at 07:23 PM.
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Old January 27 2009, 07:32 PM   #86
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If it was so important that Kes and Neelix grow old together and die in each others wrinkled arms, and it's so hard to expand Kes' life expectancy, then why didn't they just shorten Nelix's life span? I mean he was looking at another 30 to 50 years of golden years after she passed on... 50 years without your one true love to rub your feet and tell you that your whiskers are pretty? Not a life worth living, surely?
Maybe that is the reason that a new character of star trek is under the age of 40. True, Picard is a break in that rule.

Would not be that interesting to deal with a character that is 80 in human years and deal with a 7 year series. True, with other species we can give them many years of experience but make sure they live to be 200 years helps with age and experience.
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Old January 27 2009, 07:43 PM   #87
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
"Homestead" serves as a conclusion to everything we're learned about Neelix after 7 years.
Maybe when you find someone worth marring you'll understand.

Finding Talaxians on the other side of their own quaderant is no more ridiculous than finding people from China living in New York City. History books are full of people from far away lands traveling an colonizing places half a world away.
Finding Talaxians on a tiny asteroid so far from Talaxian space is as believable as if I should jump off a plane in a parachute over Antarctica and run into a relative of mine within 5 minutes after landing.

As far a removing her, I trust the producers.
I can see that since you have expressed your dislike for the character and the actress several times. I, on the other hand, likes the character and think that she was dumped and destroyed for no acceptable reason.
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Old January 27 2009, 07:58 PM   #88
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.
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Old January 27 2009, 08:08 PM   #89
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Ezri II wrote: View Post
What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.
If you mean the actress Jennifer Lien, she's married and have a son.

She has also have some appearances at some conventions this year.
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Old January 27 2009, 08:11 PM   #90
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.
If you mean the actress Jennifer Lien, she's married and have a son.

She has also have some appearances at some conventions this year.
That is nice. Glad she get an invite to a convention.

Side note: Anyone have a picture of Jennifer Lien and Nicole DeBoer at a convention?
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