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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Kes V Seven of Nine
Kes 24 20.87%
7 of 9 67 58.26%
I liked them both equally 22 19.13%
I disliked them both equally 2 1.74%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 22 2009, 11:52 PM   #46
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:
Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.
I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.
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Old January 23 2009, 12:02 AM   #47
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Kes was the only reason I used to watch Voyager, when I heard she was leaving I thought I'd not bother watching it again.

Then I head she was being replaced by a Borg character.

Seven of Nine was the only character that could ever have replaced Kes and kept me a fan of Voyager.
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Old January 23 2009, 03:50 PM   #48
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:
Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.
I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.
If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.
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Old January 23 2009, 07:17 PM   #49
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:
Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.
I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.
If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.
Well, "Cold Fire" showed that it was possible to prolong her lifespan.

The "changes" in "The Gift" were actually ridiculous. The writers wrote it that way because it was decided that the character should be dumped and they had to come up with something which would cause the character to leave as soon as possible, no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic the plot might have been.

As for "understanding that the character wasn't written well", I do think that there is a slight difference between your opinion and mine when it comes to that. I can actually see flaws in the character (as in many Star Trek characters) but the flaws aren't worse than they could be rewritten and in some case accepted.

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.
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Old January 23 2009, 09:10 PM   #50
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:


I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.
If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.
Well, "Cold Fire" showed that it was possible to prolong her lifespan.

The "changes" in "The Gift" were actually ridiculous. The writers wrote it that way because it was decided that the character should be dumped and they had to come up with something which would cause the character to leave as soon as possible, no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic the plot might have been.

As for "understanding that the character wasn't written well", I do think that there is a slight difference between your opinion and mine when it comes to that. I can actually see flaws in the character (as in many Star Trek characters) but the flaws aren't worse than they could be rewritten and in some case accepted.

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.
"Cold Fire" is one of my favourite episodes; in my opinion, it's the only time that Kes was allowed to live up to her potential.
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Old January 23 2009, 09:19 PM   #51
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.
I guess saying: "No Shit!?" would be the understatement of the year.


BTW: "Coldfire" said her life could be extented thru technology. Which was also an idea the EMH had in "B&A".

Jean-Luc, I agree.
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Old January 24 2009, 07:35 AM   #52
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Yes, the Ocampa on Suspiria's array had some thechnology or method for that which could have been used in a possible story.
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Old January 24 2009, 09:04 AM   #53
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)
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Old January 24 2009, 06:18 PM   #54
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

ZERO_of_ZERO wrote: View Post
Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)
Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".
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Old January 24 2009, 10:03 PM   #55
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
ZERO_of_ZERO wrote: View Post
Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)
Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".
.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.
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Old January 24 2009, 10:33 PM   #56
Jean-Luc Picard
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
ZERO_of_ZERO wrote: View Post
Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)
Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".
.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.
Seeing Kes grow old at an accelerated rate as her crewmates age normally could have been an interesting dynamic if used right; if done wrong, though, it could have also been disastrous.
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Old January 25 2009, 09:41 AM   #57
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
ZERO_of_ZERO wrote: View Post
Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)
Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".
.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.
Since it actually were hints in some episodes for a prolonging of her lifespan, we can assume that the writers at least considered it as a possible option.

Otherwise they would have been stuck with the problem of using make-up to make Kes look very old for every episode in the later seasons which could have created some problems. It's no problem to use make-up to create a Klingon, Vidiian or Talaxian but in most cases it look horrible and very artificial on humans.

The problem with the writers is that sometimes it looked like they didn't know what they were doing and also that they didn't care about what they were doing either. The nine-year lifespan was a joke since it should have been clear for the writers that no species can develope to more than primates with such a short lifespan, not to mention the "one-child" syndrome which simply wouldn't work in reality since it would lead to the extermination of the species. And no, I won't go into that rubbish with delivering the children from the back, the mating procedure and all that.

It was like the writes tried desperately to come up with some novelties, like "oh, we haven't had that in Star Trek before" and when it didn't work it was like they just kept the ball rolling, like "oh, never mind, the viewers won't notice". As we can see, the nine-year lifespan is hardly mentioned after season 1, it's only brought up in occasional episodes just for the sake of it. Otherwise it's just like it's never existed.

Since the writers did often go for easy solutions, prolonging the lifespan would have been a valuable option for them.
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Old January 25 2009, 10:18 AM   #58
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Well Seven would have been stuck in a Borg maturation chamber that they would have force aged her to a more productive point in her life cycle, so really she had similar issues... Then of course you have to wonder if Borg age? And if that's even half true, if the doctor turned her aging back on since it serves no real purpose? So then obviously she would be the opposite of kes but still kes if she considers that her life span is now fractionally maybe a tenth what it would have been as borg that she is exactly like Kes hanging around humans whenever she thinks about home.
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Old January 25 2009, 05:29 PM   #59
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Jean-Luc Picard wrote: View Post
Seeing Kes grow old at an accelerated rate as her crewmates age normally could have been an interesting dynamic if used right; if done wrong, though, it could have also been disastrous.
I agree. It would have been a great opportunity to explore various issues surrounding aging. However, the writers must have decided that aging would not appeal to their target demographic. Better to send Kes out while she was still young and beautiful I guess.
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Old January 25 2009, 06:49 PM   #60
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

^^
It could have been a reason for her leaving in season 4. However, I still have the feeling that Kes's exit was too quick to be planned as some way to write out the character before any problems with her aging started. If they really wanted her to leave because of problems with her aging, they could have had the decency to let her leave with Zahir in "Darkling" instead of coming up with that "energy-being" mumbo-jumbo.

And they could have spared us from the character destruction in "Fury".
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