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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Kes V Seven of Nine
Kes 24 20.87%
7 of 9 67 58.26%
I liked them both equally 22 19.13%
I disliked them both equally 2 1.74%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 17 2009, 01:37 AM   #136
AuntKate
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

teya wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I buy the whole "emotional dampener came from Icheb's cortical node" theory. It occurred to me that if Icheb had such a dampener it should have gone off when he discovered he was betrayed by his parents. I mean, these are the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally. Can there be a larger betrayal?
But Seven responded to that betrayal more emotionally than Icheb did. He seemed pretty calm about the whole thing.

And Seven certainly responded emotionally many times before the emotional inhibitor was revealed. She went off half-cocked in Dark Frontier--a truly emotional response. She had a completely human emotional response to her own mortality in "Imperfection." The death of One, her feelings of remorse (expressed pretty cogently to Neelix in "Memorial")...
Perhaps the dampener was aimed toward sexual arousal rather than emotions?
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Old February 17 2009, 01:53 AM   #137
teya
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

AuntKate wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I buy the whole "emotional dampener came from Icheb's cortical node" theory. It occurred to me that if Icheb had such a dampener it should have gone off when he discovered he was betrayed by his parents. I mean, these are the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally. Can there be a larger betrayal?
But Seven responded to that betrayal more emotionally than Icheb did. He seemed pretty calm about the whole thing.

And Seven certainly responded emotionally many times before the emotional inhibitor was revealed. She went off half-cocked in Dark Frontier--a truly emotional response. She had a completely human emotional response to her own mortality in "Imperfection." The death of One, her feelings of remorse (expressed pretty cogently to Neelix in "Memorial")...
Perhaps the dampener was aimed toward sexual arousal rather than emotions?
But why? What would be the logical point of that?

You can have sex without emotional attachment, so I don't see that this would be an issue for Borg. It's the emotions that could get them reeling and destroy cohesiveness.

Besides, the Doctor clearly said it was an emotional inhibitor.
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Old February 17 2009, 01:57 AM   #138
teya
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

kimc wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
But Seven responded to that betrayal more emotionally than Icheb did. He seemed pretty calm about the whole thing.
Teenage boys don't do a lot of emoting to begin with although I'm admittedly not an expert.
Um, yeah, they do. They don't do a lot of crying--at least in front of others--however they are definitely prone to emotional outbursts.

However, Icheb definately didn't want to stay on the planet with his parents but eventually he did so out of love. Then that love was betrayed. If he were wearing a dampener at the time it would have been going off.
Yet, at the end of the episode, he was justifying their actions.

Whereas Seven, who's supposed to have this dampener, has been carrying around all sorts of conflicting emotions about her parents since season 4.
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Old February 17 2009, 02:05 AM   #139
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Maybe the damper just isn't that efficient in Human brains.

Of maybe it had been slowly degrading ever since Kes spazzed her in Scorpion II.
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Old February 17 2009, 02:11 AM   #140
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

The dampener was almost brand new. Icheb had only been a Borg for a few months, and asleep for most of that, before Janewy repatriated him and they cherry picked the lad for parts.

However you can argue that the emotional dampener was set to teenage boy, and not 30 something female, which are two completely different ballgames altogether.
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Old February 17 2009, 03:56 PM   #141
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

AuntKate wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I buy the whole "emotional dampener came from Icheb's cortical node" theory. It occurred to me that if Icheb had such a dampener it should have gone off when he discovered he was betrayed by his parents. I mean, these are the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally. Can there be a larger betrayal?
But Seven responded to that betrayal more emotionally than Icheb did. He seemed pretty calm about the whole thing.

And Seven certainly responded emotionally many times before the emotional inhibitor was revealed. She went off half-cocked in Dark Frontier--a truly emotional response. She had a completely human emotional response to her own mortality in "Imperfection." The death of One, her feelings of remorse (expressed pretty cogently to Neelix in "Memorial")...
Perhaps the dampener was aimed toward sexual arousal rather than emotions?
That was the impression I got, not sex but rather love.

She could experance emotions but not the deeper ones, like love.
I would think allowing such stronger emotions would make it easier for assimilated people to resist compling with the collective. So having an inhibitor would dull your resistance.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:16 PM   #142
teya
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
She could experance emotions but not the deeper ones, like love.
Yet she was willing to sacrifice herself for her "family" on Voyager how many times? She refused to let Icheb put himself in danger for her.

These are examples of someone who *loves* those people--so much she's willing to put her own life aside for theirs.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:58 PM   #143
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
She could experance emotions but not the deeper ones, like love.
Yet she was willing to sacrifice herself for her "family" on Voyager how many times? She refused to let Icheb put himself in danger for her.

These are examples of someone who *loves* those people--so much she's willing to put her own life aside for theirs.
Love for ones friends is still different than deep romantic love.

Neelix loved his friends on Voyager but he still left them to pursue having a deeper connection with a wife who was also Talaxian.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:01 PM   #144
teya
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
She could experance emotions but not the deeper ones, like love.
Yet she was willing to sacrifice herself for her "family" on Voyager how many times? She refused to let Icheb put himself in danger for her.

These are examples of someone who *loves* those people--so much she's willing to put her own life aside for theirs.
Love for ones friends is still different than deep romantic love.
If you are willing to sacrifice your life, that's love.

What type doesn't matter.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:13 PM   #145
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Yet she was willing to sacrifice herself for her "family" on Voyager how many times? She refused to let Icheb put himself in danger for her.

These are examples of someone who *loves* those people--so much she's willing to put her own life aside for theirs.
Love for ones friends is still different than deep romantic love.
If you are willing to sacrifice your life, that's love.

What type doesn't matter.
In this case, I think it does.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:14 PM   #146
teya
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Love for ones friends is still different than deep romantic love.
If you are willing to sacrifice your life, that's love.

What type doesn't matter.
In this case, I think it does.
We'll have to disagree on that.

You're such a romantic.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:27 PM   #147
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

If you are willing to sacrifice your life, that's love.

What type doesn't matter.
In this case, I think it does.
We'll have to disagree on that.

You're such a romantic.
Bugs Bunny singing: "Yes, I know it. I can't help it."
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Old February 17 2009, 11:53 PM   #148
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

I liked Both characters, but I prefer Kes over Seven mostly. For one, I thought Jennifer Lien was really cute in the role, without losing that strength or innocense of her character. I also liked that Kes wasn't there to find or understand her humanity like Data, Odo, or Seven. She was there is a passenger/member of the crew who did make an impact. She opened up to pretty much everyone on the crew and gave everyone a chance, whether it was the EMH who was the outcast, or Janeway, who she looked to as a mother figure. There was just that innocence about her that I really liked. The writers taking the easy way out saying she was hard to write for is just lazyness I think. There were many possiblities to go with Kes, and it would have been great if Lien and Ryan had both been members of the cast, not one or the other.

As for 7, she was interesting too. I don't see her as the barbie of borg type as others might but I can see why she would be refered to that by what the writers forced Ryan to wear. I liked her development, but was saddened after the episode "Human Error" that it was never taken to the next step. I do however find her episodes when the hair was down, or she was more Annika than Seven (Such as Unimatrix 0, and Killing Game) my favorite "Seven" episodes.
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Old February 17 2009, 11:57 PM   #149
JustKate
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

I went for a tie - I liked them both in different ways, and I thought they did different things for the show. My problem with Kes is that she wasn't written for very well - that made her a little bland. My problem with Seven is that she was written for TOO much - more on some of the others would have been necessary, if you ask me. And whoever started this thread kind of did!
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Old February 18 2009, 12:33 AM   #150
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

teya wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
She could experance emotions but not the deeper ones, like love.
Yet she was willing to sacrifice herself for her "family" on Voyager how many times? She refused to let Icheb put himself in danger for her.

These are examples of someone who *loves* those people--so much she's willing to put her own life aside for theirs.
You could also explain it in terms of the Borg, and thus Seven of Nine, being the ultimate pragmatists.
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