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Old April 3 2009, 05:50 AM   #46
Brolan
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
Yes there are inconsistencies (most of which can be explained "in universe"), but they really come down to transitioning the story from television to film.

Whedon needed to sharpen Simon's backstory and make him much more pro-active in the movie, hence the noticable and sometimes jarring changes in the good doctor's demeanor. But his appearance was also noticably different. The television Simon had a boyish quality; his hair was tossled and he dressed in foppish Western attire, as if his mother had picked out his clothes for him. The movie Simon's hair was slicked back and the Western garb was gone. He looked "harder", more utilitarian. Either "foppish" Simon was an act (not an inconceivable idea) or Whedon did indeed retcon him to move the film along.

As for Mal, it was mentioned upthread that Fox thought his portrayal in the pilot was too dour, wounded, and grim. They wanted Whedon to lighten him up, hence the Mal we know from the series. When given the chance to make the movie, Whedon returned Mal to his original concept. Indeed, the Mal Reynolds in the two bookended "Serenity" films (pilot and movie) are the same guy; it's the television Mal in between them who was different.
What bothered me about movie Mal was I didn't see the crew following a man like that. Or maybe they stuck with him to make a quick buck, but bailed on him at the first opportuntity.
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Old April 3 2009, 06:14 AM   #47
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Well he drove Inara off the ship, and Book too, so maybe from that point on he was in a "I don't give a shit" mentallity and told Simon off because he was making things difficult and just pissing him off. That would fit with later on Haven when he told them he'd leave them all there.

As for the second, I think Whedon said he simply forgot.
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Old April 3 2009, 06:20 AM   #48
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

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My problem with it is the source of their newfound wealth. What I think they should've done was to tie it into "Trash" -- have them get rich by selling the Lassiter pistol they stole. That would've tied up that dangling loose end from the series.
IIRC, KRAD covered this in the novelization by saying that they bought the hover-mule with the Lassiter profits.
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Old April 3 2009, 10:01 AM   #49
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
Yes there are inconsistencies (most of which can be explained "in universe"), but they really come down to transitioning the story from television to film.

Whedon needed to sharpen Simon's backstory and make him much more pro-active in the movie, hence the noticable and sometimes jarring changes in the good doctor's demeanor. But his appearance was also noticably different. The television Simon had a boyish quality; his hair was tossled and he dressed in foppish Western attire, as if his mother had picked out his clothes for him. The movie Simon's hair was slicked back and the Western garb was gone. He looked "harder", more utilitarian. Either "foppish" Simon was an act (not an inconceivable idea) or Whedon did indeed retcon him to move the film along.

As for Mal, it was mentioned upthread that Fox thought his portrayal in the pilot was too dour, wounded, and grim. They wanted Whedon to lighten him up, hence the Mal we know from the series. When given the chance to make the movie, Whedon returned Mal to his original concept. Indeed, the Mal Reynolds in the two bookended "Serenity" films (pilot and movie) are the same guy; it's the television Mal in between them who was different.
I don't think that either of those are real inconsistencies, though. Real people are multi-faceted creatures with many different faces for many different situations, who change, evolve, revert, and change back again and again over time.

Heck, Whedon even acknowledged the differences in Mal's behavior when he has Inara ask him who he is now.
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Old April 3 2009, 06:03 PM   #50
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

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The biggest contradiction is that the TV show was very good and the movie was very bad.
Oh, beat me to it.

I get so pissed off when watching Firefly and Serenity. When watching Firefly I get pissed off at Fox for canceling a show that could have been a pinnacle of television and when I watch Serenity I get pissed off... at Fox for canceling Firefly and getting Serenity instead.
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Old April 3 2009, 09:23 PM   #51
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

I don't think they retconed Simon. Simon was almsot in diguise when he quitely sought passage about Serenity; the dark flasses and cloths, didn't even seem to fit his personallity, more like he was making a (lousey) attempt to hide.

And remember he was the one who made the suggestion of sneaking into a Alliance hospital and steal medicine. The show only lasted like 14 episodes -- we never really got to see all of his personallity.

Also remember, not getting paid very often, or eating very often, with a pissing, angry, conflicting crew, can kind of harden a person after living with them for over a year.
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Old April 3 2009, 09:57 PM   #52
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Sci wrote: View Post
Real people are multi-faceted creatures with many different faces for many different situations, who change, evolve, revert, and change back again and again over time.
It was less than a year in-story between the pilot and movie, not nearly enough time for those changes and evolutions to occur believably. In Simon's case in particular they were either forced or faked. And again, the possibility that "foppish Simon" was an act from the very beginning is not out of the question.
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Old April 3 2009, 11:14 PM   #53
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
It was less than a year in-story between the pilot and movie, not nearly enough time for those changes and evolutions to occur believably. In Simon's case in particular they were either forced or faked.
I'm again compelled to point out that the Simon of "Ariel" is just as competent, determined, strong, and effective as the Simon of Serenity. He always had that potential within him, when he was in his element and when he was motivated by the need to protect his sister.

Simon was like me -- not good at being spontaneous or dealing with the unexpected, but quite capable when he had time to make plans and prepare himself. So he seemed clumsy and feckless when he was out of his depth, facing situations like interacting with frontier ruffians, participating in heists, and being seduced by Kaylee; but as we saw more than once on the show, particularly in "Ariel," he was perfectly capable of handling himself once he'd gotten a handle on a situation, once he'd been able to develop a plan for responding to it. We also saw this in "Objects in Space." When he was initially attacked by Early, he was taken down easily; but later on, when he'd had more time to size up his opponent, he was effective at waging psychological warfare against Early, turning the tables and making Early the confused, uncertain one.

So the Simon of Serenity is exactly the same character as the multifaceted Simon Tam of Firefly. In River's rescue, as in "Ariel," he was a man with a plan, a man acting out a practiced role in a context he was familiar with (medicine, high technology), and so he was focused, confident, and capable. In the present-day scenes, he'd been on board Serenity for eight months, gotten accustomed to his crewmates and their lifestyle, and so he was in a better position to cope with it and was less tentative. And once it became clear that River was in danger, Simon showed unquestionable strength and determination in standing up for her, just as he always did.
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Old April 3 2009, 11:19 PM   #54
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

^^ But... his hair was different. And don't think we didn't notice.
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Old April 4 2009, 01:24 AM   #55
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Eh, people in Joss's shows change hair styles all the time.

And remember how well he hide his feelings for Kaylee. It wasn't unti lthe film he admited sharing them.

Didn't Joss say he planned five or sevens seasons of the show? I'm sure he had paths and ideas. "Serenity" may have been something like a season 2 or 3 finale that got built up to.
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Old April 4 2009, 01:31 AM   #56
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
Well he drove Inara off the ship, and Book too....
I didn't think Mal drove Book off... I always operated under the assumption that Book just reached the end of his trip, and jumped ship.
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Old April 4 2009, 01:43 AM   #57
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
Well he drove Inara off the ship, and Book too....
I didn't think Mal drove Book off... I always operated under the assumption that Book just reached the end of his trip, and jumped ship.
According to Joss, the comic series he did (the first one), is cannon. In it, Mal eventually drove Book to anger, and Book slugged him one. This caused Book to re-evaluate being on the ship, and as I recall (I think that was covered in the next issues [Ineed to re-read them]), this caused him to leave. Plus, he was "terminated" (I assume it was termination from Alliance spying).
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Old April 4 2009, 03:24 AM   #58
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Another thing I didn't like about the movie is that soemone seeing it would have no idea that the TV show had a Western motif.
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Old April 4 2009, 04:43 AM   #59
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Nardpuncher wrote: View Post
Another thing I didn't like about the movie is that soemone seeing it would have no idea that the TV show had a Western motif.
Uhh, I think the bank heist might've tipped them off. But it's a myth that Firefly was meant to be just a "space Western." It depicted a human civilization that was a hodgepodge of cultural influences and technological levels. The frontier worlds resembled the Old West while the core worlds were sleek and futuristic, with everything in between. Part of the problem with not showing the original pilot first was that audiences didn't get to see the mix of cultural and technological levels it showed and were thus given the false impression that it was just a "space Western" -- and were also deprived of the pilot's explanation for why the frontier worlds were like that.
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Old April 4 2009, 10:56 AM   #60
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Re: Contradictions between Firefly series & Serenity

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nardpuncher wrote: View Post
Another thing I didn't like about the movie is that soemone seeing it would have no idea that the TV show had a Western motif.
Uhh, I think the bank heist might've tipped them off. But it's a myth that Firefly was meant to be just a "space Western." It depicted a human civilization that was a hodgepodge of cultural influences and technological levels. The frontier worlds resembled the Old West while the core worlds were sleek and futuristic, with everything in between. Part of the problem with not showing the original pilot first was that audiences didn't get to see the mix of cultural and technological levels it showed and were thus given the false impression that it was just a "space Western" -- and were also deprived of the pilot's explanation for why the frontier worlds were like that.

Oops...I guess I was wrong again! Thanks for that.
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