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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old January 7 2009, 06:37 AM   #31
Hoshi_Mayweather
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Re: Dark Mirror

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
aelius wrote: View Post
I loved Dark Mirror. I also wish they had done a MU TNG. Then we probably would have had something similar to Dark Mirror rather than the fallen Terran Empire ruled over by the Alliance.
Security Officer Deanna Troi was an amazing character, and I think that she would have translated well to the smell screen.

With some friends, a couple of weeks ago I watched the sixth-season episode where Troi is forced to pose as a Tal Sh'iar agent ("Clearly, your father was a traitor."). I mourned, just a little bit, for the episode that never got made.

Dark Mirror's impact for me lay in the way that it made so many could-be possibilities of TNG a reality--Picard and Beverly are a couple! and so are Riker and Troi! and Troi's a stronger telepath, confident in her abilities! and Wesley's a go-getter!--and make them go so horribly wrong.
Well, Beverly, being the 'Captain's Woman' didn't have a stable relationship with muPicard, whom she mentions has wandering eyes for pretty young Ensigns. (Being that Beverly is the medical doctor, she makes it clear that if you get on her bad side...it is hoped that you don't have a sickness while she is on duty).

Troi, as much heat as she gets from TNG fans, is a 'badass' in this book. She senses everything, and doesn't have any problem with getting into your dreams, thoughts, what have you; and the more a person is afraid, the more she likes it!

She was pretty much one of, if not the powerful person on the ship.

Troi has Riker because she chooses to. She even makes propositions to RUPicard somewhere in the novel; and I'm not sure whether or not she make a proposition to Geordi....(I do know she tortures him).

All in all, an interesting group of characters.
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Old January 7 2009, 08:35 AM   #32
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Re: Dark Mirror

John Clark wrote: View Post
I think I'd have liked to have seen this one on screen

I certainly enjoyed the book

That book is the reason I created so many of my Dark Mirror Characters and Starships. Although
I haven't stuck 100% to the book, it still is the foundation to my creations.

Don't get me wrong I like the stories in the Ds9 Mirror Unicerse, but I would of loved to see this universe explored a little more.
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Old January 8 2009, 03:47 AM   #33
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Re: Dark Mirror

Dark Mirror was one of my first Trek novels and is among my favourites. I also have been inspired to create my own Mirror Universe because of it...wasn't a huge fan of the changes that Deep Space Nine made with the MU as I thought Dark Mirror did a great job of continuing the themes of "Mirror, Mirror". Also a thought on how long the Mirror Universe has lasted. I have always been of the opinion that the Mirror Universe is a global continuation of the Roman Empire. At some point during its history there was a unification war of somesort which established an Emperor, then the Imperial Senate was created in place of a UN or Federation Council, Starfleet was created to be their military space branch. They've basically taken the legacy of the Roman Empire and transformed it globally and incorperated technlogical advances into it.

Btw...I agree that it would have made an excellent TNG episode. I think that the book took place during the middle of season four or begining of season five IIRC so it would be interesting to see the characters portray themselves as Evil. Although I didn't quite like the description of the ISS Enterrise D's bridge...seemed too grandiose even for the Mirror Universe.
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Old January 9 2009, 12:22 AM   #34
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Re: Dark Mirror

Christopher wrote: View Post
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I wonder if "Crossover" might have been more interesting with a cruel Terran Empire having conquered Bajor from the relatively benevolent Cardassians. Having Kira come face-to-face with a broken, subjugated version of herself could have been a lot more interesting than the vampy Intendant.
But Kira spent most of her life subjugated. The character wouldn't be much different then. Despite the caricature that Intendant Kira became, what was interesting about her interaction with Major Kira in "Crossover" was that she essentially represented everything Kira had wished for all her life -- a strong, free, powerful Bajor. And yet despite that, she turned out to be someone Kira wouldn't want to emulate. A "be careful what you wish for" sort of deal.
But our Kira was never really subjugated. She was a freedom fighter all her life. The Terran Empire, as depicted in Dark Mirror, seems to me like it would have been a lot more cruel than even the worst of "our" Cardassians.
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Old January 9 2009, 01:00 AM   #35
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Re: Dark Mirror

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
But our Kira was never really subjugated. She was a freedom fighter all her life.
There is a huge difference between being a freedom fighter and being free. Hell yes, she was subjugated. She grew up in a world ruled by people who deprived her whole species of rights and dignity. She lived under constant threat to her life, safety, bodily integrity, etc. She saw friends and fellow members of her community tortured, starved, raped, killed. She had her own mother forcibly taken from her when she was a small child and never saw her again. Even though she had the will to fight, that hardly means she wasn't psychologically and physically oppressed to a horrific degree.

The Terran Empire, as depicted in Dark Mirror, seems to me like it would have been a lot more cruel than even the worst of "our" Cardassians.
But that's just a difference of degree. It's more interesting to see Kira faced with someone whose life circumstances were the diametric opposite of her own, who represented everything Kira aspired to. That was what gave the Intendant nuance in her first appearance that was squandered later on: the fact that she, and her Bajor, had qualities that Kira (our viewpoint character for those portions of the episode) could admire and be drawn to.
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Old January 9 2009, 04:48 AM   #36
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Re: Dark Mirror

Christopher wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
But our Kira was never really subjugated. She was a freedom fighter all her life.
There is a huge difference between being a freedom fighter and being free. Hell yes, she was subjugated. She grew up in a world ruled by people who deprived her whole species of rights and dignity. She lived under constant threat to her life, safety, bodily integrity, etc. She saw friends and fellow members of her community tortured, starved, raped, killed. She had her own mother forcibly taken from her when she was a small child and never saw her again. Even though she had the will to fight, that hardly means she wasn't psychologically and physically oppressed to a horrific degree.
I was gonna respond to Robert Maxwell, but I can't improve on this. So, uh, what he said.


the fact that she, and her Bajor, had qualities that Kira (our viewpoint character for those portions of the episode) could admire and be drawn to.
Yeah, I was really disappointed that future MU episodes only had Sisko crossing over. (Well, and Quark and Rom and Zek, but I try not to think about "The Emperor's New Cloak.") I wish that Kira and O'Brien had beamed over with Sisko when Jake was kidnapped in "Shattered Mirror."
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Old January 11 2009, 05:23 AM   #37
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Re: Dark Mirror

Christopher wrote: View Post

There is a huge difference between being a freedom fighter and being free. Hell yes, she was subjugated. She grew up in a world ruled by people who deprived her whole species of rights and dignity. She lived under constant threat to her life, safety, bodily integrity, etc. She saw friends and fellow members of her community tortured, starved, raped, killed. She had her own mother forcibly taken from her when she was a small child and never saw her again. Even though she had the will to fight, that hardly means she wasn't psychologically and physically oppressed to a horrific degree.
Yes, but in the real universe, she always fought and didn't give up. She held onto the notion that she would one day be free.
I figured Robert was suggesting that it would be interesting to have seen a Kira who, under the harsher by degrees subjugation of the Terran Empire, was broken. A Kira that gave up and abandoned the fight.
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Old January 11 2009, 05:41 AM   #38
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Re: Dark Mirror

I'm not usually a big Duane fan, but I enjoyed Dark Mirror. The DS9 Mirror Universe episodes and the introduction of the pah wraiths are the only two things I really dislike about DS9.

I liked the Dark Mirror set up much better and I have always wished that DS9 had gone with something more in tune with that version.
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Old January 11 2009, 02:55 PM   #39
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Re: Dark Mirror

"Security Officer Deanna Troi was an amazing character, and I think that she would have translated well to the smell screen."


I bet she smells good too. mmm....
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Old January 11 2009, 03:45 PM   #40
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Re: Dark Mirror

Deano2099 wrote: View Post
I figured Robert was suggesting that it would be interesting to have seen a Kira who, under the harsher by degrees subjugation of the Terran Empire, was broken. A Kira that gave up and abandoned the fight.
Yes, I got that. But my point is that it's still a comparatively minor difference; it could just as easily been a story about Kira dealing with a fellow Bajoran who gave up, and we saw stories like that more than once when she dealt with collaborators, even including her own mother. If you're going to an alternate history, there's no point in giving Bajor a history that's the same as its main-timeline one except that the identity of the oppressors is different. The point isn't just that Kira is different in the MU, it's that she's different because Bajor is different, because it's prosperous and powerful and respected rather than broken and oppressed and impoverished. That was a fascinating idea that I wish had been explored more -- the idea that the MU Bajor was a place that "our" Bajorans would envy, that the MU was actually better for them even while it was worse for humans.
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Old January 12 2009, 02:34 PM   #41
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Re: Dark Mirror

I really enjoyed this story. I actually listened to the 3 hour audiobook version but would like to read the actual novel in about 6 months because I'd love to get into the finer details of the mu characters.
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Old January 12 2009, 02:41 PM   #42
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Re: Dark Mirror

^I also just listened to the 3 hour audiobook, and really enjoyed it. I have the hardcover and read it a few years ago; Diane Duane's full novel does not disappoint, as I have found out lately, is the usual case when it comes to Ms. Duane. Hope you enjoy it!
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Old January 12 2009, 04:02 PM   #43
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Re: Dark Mirror

Just out of curiosity, who reads the audiobook version?
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Old January 12 2009, 05:02 PM   #44
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Re: Dark Mirror

JD wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, who reads the audiobook version?
No one said they read it, just that we listened to it. Audiobooks are perfect for when you're stuck in traffic or out on a jog or bike ride. They are mostly abridged versions that get released so things are cut out, but every once in awhile (like the Vulcan's Soul trilogy) they get released unabridged and you get to listen to a 10 hour audiobook! It's just one more medium on top of Movies, TV, Books, and Comics for us to enjoy trek. You should open your mind and try one out. You might like something new and different.
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Old January 12 2009, 06:46 PM   #45
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Re: Dark Mirror

Paris wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, who reads the audiobook version?
No one said they read it, just that we listened to it. Audiobooks are perfect for when you're stuck in traffic or out on a jog or bike ride. They are mostly abridged versions that get released so things are cut out, but every once in awhile (like the Vulcan's Soul trilogy) they get released unabridged and you get to listen to a 10 hour audiobook! It's just one more medium on top of Movies, TV, Books, and Comics for us to enjoy trek. You should open your mind and try one out. You might like something new and different.
I'm sure JD meant to ask who READS the audio book in the context of them someone reading the text and thus speaking the words so you can listen to them! Say like Stephen Fry reads the Harry Potter novels for the audio versions!
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