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Old February 8 2014, 03:49 PM   #1
Warped9
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Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

So today Episode 2 "Lolani" is premiering at a convention in Dallas (I believe) and then released online sometime later this evening. I'm eager to see this.

The STC crew has been very tight on any spoilers getting out, but a couple of tidbits are out there. The final version of their promotional poster for the episode is out and it includes the image of an Orion slave girl. Make of that what you will. I'm hoping they opt not to do something cheesy with that. On another note apparently guest star Erin Gray is listed in the cast as Commodore Gray. If true then STC is asserting that Janice Lester was a embittered loon and that women can indeed command in the TOS era.


My plan to watch this is to (somehow) wait until tomorrow afternoon to see it on a friend's big screen TV leading one of periodic movie nights...with pizza.
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Old February 8 2014, 04:17 PM   #2
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Well, I suppose a woman can rise to the rank of Commodore without ever having been allowed to command a Starship.

Lolani
The Holiest Thing
The Tressaurian Intersection conclusion

It looks like it will be a fun month or two.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:15 PM   #3
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Or we never saw a woman command a starship during the five-year mission. I don't think NBC would've allowed that.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:28 PM   #4
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Peach Wookiee wrote: View Post
Or we never saw a woman command a starship during the five-year mission. I don't think NBC would've allowed that.
It's been hashed out over and over and over and over again. NBC did not have a problem with Number One in the "The Cage," but they didn't like Roddenberry casting his extramarital girlfriend and didn't think she was strong enough for the part. And in the episode she actually does command throughout most of the episode in Pike's absence. NBC is on record at the time of wanting to promote more progressive roles for women and other nationalities. There's actually a memo to that effect that we can examine today. Roddenberry is the one who cooked up the story of NBC not liking a woman in command just so he could save face and spare his lover's feelings.

There's nothing in the series itself that explicity states a woman cannot command. As for the STC Ep. 2 we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
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Old February 8 2014, 07:00 PM   #5
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose a woman can rise to the rank of Commodore without ever having been allowed to command a Starship.

Lolani
The Holiest Thing
The Tressaurian Intersection conclusion

It looks like it will be a fun month or two.
Well, this is a great valentines day present all the way!!!!
Wow, this is going to be a great time.
Thanks to all for the hard work and time spent on these projects.
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Old February 8 2014, 07:25 PM   #6
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Peach Wookiee wrote: View Post
Or we never saw a woman command a starship during the five-year mission. I don't think NBC would've allowed that.
Yeah, don't blame NBC for that one.
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Old February 8 2014, 08:43 PM   #7
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose a woman can rise to the rank of Commodore without ever having been allowed to command a starship.
In fairness we haven't seen the STC episode yet so we can't make any assumptions on their part.

In TOS we saw at least three Commodores with starship command experience: Stone, Decker and Wesley. We saw only one with no starship command experience: Stocker. So from that small sample alone it argues more in favour of a Commodore having had starship command experience than not.

We also saw Number One who is First Officer and commands in Pike's absence. Since there's nothing within the rest of the series that explicitly states she can't command a ship (which she is already gaining experience for) then it follows it should be quite possible for Number One to eventually get her own starship command and eventually be promoted to Commodore and even beyond.

I applaud STC for touching on this, for it says something to me as to what their thinking is on this issue in TOS.
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Old February 8 2014, 09:46 PM   #8
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, I suppose a woman can rise to the rank of Commodore without ever having been allowed to command a starship.
In fairness we haven't seen the STC episode yet so we can't make any assumptions on their part.
Oh, absolutely. I agree that we can't actually make any assumptions on their part yet--and "if true then STC is asserting that Janice Lester was a embittered loon and that women can indeed command in the TOS era" would be one of those assumptions we can't make. My comment was simply indicating that the presence of a female "Commodore Gray" does not inherently actually contradict Janice Lester's comment "Your world of Starship captains doesn't admit women." She could still be correct even given a Commodore Gray. There could be female Commodores and Admirals who have risen to those ranks despite an organizational prohibition on women commanding Starships. (I'm not advocating that position; I'm just saying that it it would remain an arguable possibility.)
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Old February 8 2014, 09:59 PM   #9
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

^^ Yet as has been debated ad nauseum Janice Lester's remark can be interpreted two ways. A lot depends on what perceptions one brings to it.
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Old February 8 2014, 10:16 PM   #10
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Peach Wookiee wrote: View Post
Or we never saw a woman command a starship during the five-year mission. I don't think NBC would've allowed that.
It's been hashed out over and over and over and over again. NBC did not have a problem with Number One in the "The Cage," but they didn't like Roddenberry casting his extramarital girlfriend and didn't think she was strong enough for the part. And in the episode she actually does command throughout most of the episode in Pike's absence. NBC is on record at the time of wanting to promote more progressive roles for women and other nationalities. There's actually a memo to that effect that we can examine today. Roddenberry is the one who cooked up the story of NBC not liking a woman in command just so he could save face and spare his lover's feelings.

There's nothing in the series itself that explicity states a woman cannot command. As for the STC Ep. 2 we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
I stand corrected.
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Old February 8 2014, 10:23 PM   #11
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

It's also quite possible that NBC helped push the idea of a more multiracial cast/crew we see in the series after "The Cage."


For STC's Ep. 2 I do know we may well see some Kirk fighting action as there was a clip released awhile back showing Vic Mignogna rehearsing the classic Kirk flying kick. And a released still shot might be showing us a female security officer, something we didn't see until TAS' "The Lorelei Signal."
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Old February 8 2014, 10:25 PM   #12
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

NBC TELEVISION NETWORK

August 17, 1965

Mr. Gene Roddenberry
DESILU STUDIOS
Hollywood, Calif.

Dear Gene:

Census figures, in the mid-1960s, indicate that one American in every eight is non-white. It is reasonable to assume that this percentage also applies to the television audience.

I choose this statistic to call to your attention once again to NBC's longstanding policy of non-discrimination. Our efforts in the past to assure the fact that the programs broadcast on our facilities are a natural reflection of the role of minorities in American life have met with substantial success. I would like to congratulate those producers who have extended themselves in this regard and I invite all of our creative associates to join us in an even greater effort to meet this fact of American life.

NBC's employment policy has long dictated that there can be no discrimination because of race, creed, religion or national origin and this applies in all of out operations. In addition, since we are mindful of our vast audience and the extent to which television influences taste and attitudes, we are not only anxious but determined that members of minority groups be treated in a manner consistent with their role in society. While this applies to all racial minorities, obviously the principle reference is to the casting and depiction of Negroes. Our purpose is to assure that in our medium, and within the permissive framework of dramatic license, we present a reasonable reflection of contemporary society.

We urge producers to cast Negroes, subject to their availability and competence as performs, as people who are an integral segment of the population, as well as in those roles where the fact of their minority status is of significance. An earnest attempt has been made to see that their presence contributes to an honest and natural reflection of places, situations and events, and we desire to intensify and extend this effort.

We believe that NBC's pursuit of this police is pre-eminent in the broadcasting industry. It is evident in both the daytime and nighttime schedules and particularly in such popular programs as I SPY, THE ANDY WILLIAMS SHOW, THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E., RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, and many other presentations. While we have made noticeable progress we can do better, and I ask you for your cooperation and help.

Sincerely,

MORT WERNER
[Programs Vice President]
* Though not referring to women, this memo does point out NBC's stated commitment for diversity. As reproduced on pages 76–77 of the book Inside Star Trek by Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman, 1996 by Pocket Books.
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Old February 8 2014, 10:38 PM   #13
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

^^
That memo is actually from 1966 (which makes more sense; Run For Your Life was in production in August of '65, but wouldn't premiere until the following month). The date is a little blurry in the Solow/Justman book, but it's still at UCLA and a bit clearer in person.
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Old February 8 2014, 10:42 PM   #14
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
^^ Yet as has been debated ad nauseum Janice Lester's remark can be interpreted two ways. A lot depends on what perceptions one brings to it.
I think it's more accurate to say that some people interpret it one way, and others interpret it another. The number of fans, at least fans around here, who would admit that both interpretations are plausible are very few indeed. Most of us have made up our minds what was intended in the episode, and those who have made up their minds implicitly believe the other side to be mistaken.

That said, with respect to those of us who believe that the intent of the episode was that women were barred from command, it's a sure bet that the overwhelming majority would have no problem throwing that episode under the bus as the embarrassment to continuity that it is and always has been.
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Old February 8 2014, 11:53 PM   #15
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Re: Star Trek Continues: Episode 2 "Lolani"...

Harvey wrote: View Post
^^
That memo is actually from 1966 (which makes more sense; Run For Your Life was in production in August of '65, but wouldn't premiere until the following month). The date is a little blurry in the Solow/Justman book, but it's still at UCLA and a bit clearer in person.
Yeah, that makes sense. I shall correct it henceforth.
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