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Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
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Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
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Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


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Old December 15 2008, 09:46 AM   #46
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Kringus wrote: View Post
That's what I got as well. The timeline will tend towards the most probable outcome. Therefore, it will correct itself and have the same probable outcome. To use "First Contact" and "Enterprise", Archer was always going to be the captain of that flight, just some of the circumstances of that happening changed a bit. Cochrane was going to have First Contact on that day, just the circumstances changed a bit. However, in the larger scope, the same things happened, just slightly differently.

In the new movie, the outcome (TOS) still happens, just what lead up to it happened a bit differently.

A positive side effect is that unprobable outcomes are more likely to change to probable outcomes. So bye-bye "Spock's Brain"!
I see a couple of problems with this. First, unless there is a Year of Hell type reset button at the end of this, where Nero never goes back at all, then there are any number of things that no longer make sense. The first of which is Balance of Terror. This completely wipes out the whole notion of that episode.

Further, Year of Hell itself creates an alternate timeline that disproves the whole probable outcome thing. If Trek followed that logic, Voyager would have been caught in an endless yearlong loop because Annorax would have done the same thing over and over again.

The fact that his entire comment is based on a theory that can neither be proven nor disproven aside, his comment in no way suggests that what we knew as TOS will happen after the events of this movie.

What he said was that something similar would likely occur. But then he goes on to completely contradict that statement with the following...

"
According to the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues." The "many-universes interpretation" of quantum mechanics says that there is a very large, perhaps infinite, number of universes and that everything that could possibly happen in our universe, but doesn't, does happen in some other universe(s).
Which, essentially says that there is an equal likelihood that everything we know as TOS will NOT happen as there is that it will.

Now, since we are discussing a work of fiction, naturally, the writer can decide that it is whatever he says it is. But, me, personally? I'd rather he simply call it an alternate timeline and stick with that, so that when this movie bombs it will be all the excuse we need to forget it ever happened.
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Old December 15 2008, 11:36 AM   #47
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

What is it with the Trek geeks who think they speak on behalf of everyone else?
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Old December 16 2008, 12:36 AM   #48
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Aragorn wrote: View Post
What is it with the Trek geeks who think they speak on behalf of everyone else?
Divine Right.
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Old December 16 2008, 04:25 AM   #49
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Aragorn wrote: View Post
What is it with the Trek geeks who think they speak on behalf of everyone else?
Absolute ownership. GENE'S VISION!!!!11!
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Old December 16 2008, 10:37 AM   #50
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Orci's explanation seemed like a lot of technobabble claptrap to me.
It's only an offscreen explaination.
They're keeping technobabble to a minimum in this one and I doubt that the explanation will ever appear on screen.
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Old December 16 2008, 04:37 PM   #51
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Kringus wrote: View Post
That's what I got as well. The timeline will tend towards the most probable outcome. Therefore, it will correct itself and have the same probable outcome. To use "First Contact" and "Enterprise", Archer was always going to be the captain of that flight, just some of the circumstances of that happening changed a bit. Cochrane was going to have First Contact on that day, just the circumstances changed a bit. However, in the larger scope, the same things happened, just slightly differently.

In the new movie, the outcome (TOS) still happens, just what lead up to it happened a bit differently.

A positive side effect is that unprobable outcomes are more likely to change to probable outcomes. So bye-bye "Spock's Brain"!
I see a couple of problems with this. First, unless there is a Year of Hell type reset button at the end of this, where Nero never goes back at all, then there are any number of things that no longer make sense. The first of which is Balance of Terror. This completely wipes out the whole notion of that episode.
I don't follow all the spoilers too closely, but who says that Kirk even meets Nero? Plus doesn't Nero have his ears off, or something, so if Kirk and him have a big throw down, he won't see the Vulcan similarities or realize that he is Romulan?
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Old December 16 2008, 05:08 PM   #52
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Kringus wrote: View Post
Therefore, it will correct itself and have the same probable outcome. To use "First Contact" and "Enterprise", Archer was always going to be the captain of that flight, just some of the circumstances of that happening changed a bit.
but didn't we see how close the competition for Enterprise was? It could've easily gone another way in other universes
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Old December 16 2008, 05:10 PM   #53
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Kringus wrote: View Post
I don't follow all the spoilers too closely, but who says that Kirk even meets Nero?
It would be pretty odd to have this movie take place without the lead villian and the lead hero actually coming together at some point. Beyond that, there's a scene in the trailer with our "badass" Sulu in hand to hand combat with a Romulan.


Plus doesn't Nero have his ears off, or something, so if Kirk and him have a big throw down, he won't see the Vulcan similarities or realize that he is Romulan?
No, the ears are there.

Admittedly, the notion to me that Spock, who was quite well versed in Vulcan history, didn't realize that Vulcans and Romulans were distant relatives somewhat amazed me when I saw Balance of Terror. But, it is what it is.
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Old December 18 2008, 12:55 AM   #54
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
It would be pretty odd to have this movie take place without the lead villian and the lead hero actually coming together at some point. Beyond that, there's a scene in the trailer with our "badass" Sulu in hand to hand combat with a Romulan.
Kirk never met Khan in "Star Trek II."

Besides, the Romulans have been stirring up trouble for years on "Enterprise," and the crew never met any of them.

I think the fact that the writers are "Star Trek" fans, and the fact that "Balance of Terror" would be one of the most important episodes on any fan's list, would mean that this movie would not contradict anything in that episode. Unless the writers are going out of their way to show that this movie is set in an alternate universe, like "Yesterday's Enterprise," by making radical and obvious changes to history right from the start (e.g., having Yar on the bridge instead of Worf).

If that is the case, then either Spock will "fix" the timeline by the end, or the producers are just planning to tell a new series of Trek stories set in an alternate universe, like "Enterprise" did in the two-part Mirror Universe episode, "In a Mirror, Darkly," which was still part of Trek continuity, but characters could be killed off and events could be freely changed since we have no information to the contrary about events in that alternate reality.
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Old December 18 2008, 09:27 AM   #55
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

I like Orci's explanation; and I look forward to see if he can pull it off...

Someone mentioned that 'Enterprise' was meant to do the same thing; however, 'Enterprise' was not executed in a manner that the people behind the scenes knew what they wanted.

Was 'Enterprise' a prequel? A reboot? What?

Too, you had various contradictions going on without explanation; it wasn't until the 3rd season, did 'Enterprise' take on the name 'Star Trek' and decide it WAS a prequel to Kirk's era.

Back to Trek2009:

Again, I'm excited. I hope it will bring in new fans.

Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind seeing a re-interpretation of the other series: ENT, TNG, DS9, VOY in relation to this new TOS crew. (I know some may hate it, but--hey--I would personally like to see it).

Interestingly, they could still fit the enigmatic Robert April as a 'captain' somewhere if they wanted....since he hasn't been fully established. (He could be a future Enterprise or Yamato or Excelsior captain for all we know, who 'played' in the holodeck thinking he was the first captain of the Enterprise--reliving an earlier era).

On a final note, to add to an earlier discussion: Trek HAS relied a lot on time-travel. If something is broken, travel back in time to fix it. (Or if you are a villian, go back in time and destroy that one person or event).

No one cares if a planet or species is destroyed or changed that might affect their reality when they return.

Also, if you do overanalyze it: Trek DOES have a lot of parallel universes going on. It almost turns Trek into a time-travel show as well.
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Old December 19 2008, 01:02 AM   #56
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

As I was reading the article, I was just imagining the shrieks of "Noooo! There is only one Canon! One true Way! One Kirk!"

I think Orci's explanation is great. It shows that they want to preserve the important stuff - who Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the rest are as characters, what the themes of Trek are supposed to be - without obsessing over how how they got to that point.

Also, I tend to like the Multiple Worlds interpretation, and I think it's awesome that he's mentioning it. Paradox-free quantum mechanics is all good in my book.
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Old December 19 2008, 06:34 AM   #57
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post
It would be pretty odd to have this movie take place without the lead villian and the lead hero actually coming together at some point. Beyond that, there's a scene in the trailer with our "badass" Sulu in hand to hand combat with a Romulan.
Kirk never met Khan in "Star Trek II."
I believe they had a couple of conversations during the movie, one that ended with the often forgotten line, "KHHAAANNN!"

Merry Miss Nguyen wrote: View Post
Someone mentioned that 'Enterprise' was meant to do the same thing; however, 'Enterprise' was not executed in a manner that the people behind the scenes knew what they wanted.

Was 'Enterprise' a prequel? A reboot? What?

Too, you had various contradictions going on without explanation; it wasn't until the 3rd season, did 'Enterprise' take on the name 'Star Trek' and decide it WAS a prequel to Kirk's era.
ENT was always intended to be a prequel from TPTB. Angry Keyboard Warriors are the ones who kept insisting that it wasn't. "Star Trek" wasn't included in the title for the first 2 (plus 2 episodes) seasons as a way to market the show in an attempt to get a broader audience. "Star Trek" being added was a network decision, not a producer/creative staff one.
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Old December 20 2008, 10:51 AM   #58
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Dropo wrote: View Post
Merry Miss Nguyen wrote: View Post
Someone mentioned that 'Enterprise' was meant to do the same thing; however, 'Enterprise' was not executed in a manner that the people behind the scenes knew what they wanted.

Was 'Enterprise' a prequel? A reboot? What?

Too, you had various contradictions going on without explanation; it wasn't until the 3rd season, did 'Enterprise' take on the name 'Star Trek' and decide it WAS a prequel to Kirk's era.
ENT was always intended to be a prequel from TPTB. Angry Keyboard Warriors are the ones who kept insisting that it wasn't. "Star Trek" wasn't included in the title for the first 2 (plus 2 episodes) seasons as a way to market the show in an attempt to get a broader audience. "Star Trek" being added was a network decision, not a producer/creative staff one.
Oh, yes...I understand that now.

However, when the show was in its infancy, to us--the viewers (aside from the die-hard Trekkies)-- who just knew the show by what we seen each week via the storytelling, ENT didn't know what it wanted to be. If it was to be a prequel it didn't succeed in telling us that.

Of course, as aforementioned, it seemed to have got on its feet in later seasons, but still wasn't quite there.
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Old December 21 2008, 06:32 AM   #59
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

"These are the Voyages" clearly attempts to show Enterprise and TNG as part of the same timeline.



On topic, this interview has been the most concerning information to me about the new movie. That said, I still plan to see it and see what actually occurs in the movie.
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