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Old December 14 2008, 03:12 AM   #31
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
The entire series of "Star Trek: Enterprise" takes place in the alternate timeline created when Picard and the Enterprise-E went back in time to fight the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact." "Enterprise" episodes showed wreckage of the Borg sphere on Earth, and mentioned Cochrane's recollections of the Borg attack. (We can assume that after the Enterprise-E returned to the future, it returned to the "Enterprise" timeline, rather than the one it was in at the beginning of "First Contact.") So the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" takes place in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline that was started in "First Contact."
B'wha? Where was that established besides on internet message boards?
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Old December 14 2008, 05:15 AM   #32
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

In other time-travel stories, it didn't matter as our guys went forward into an unknown future. If this story ends with an alternate timeline, it means all that we knew, from TOS-VOY, are wiped.

As a long-term fan, I don't like that.
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Old December 14 2008, 06:06 AM   #33
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Dropo wrote: View Post
TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
The entire series of "Star Trek: Enterprise" takes place in the alternate timeline created when Picard and the Enterprise-E went back in time to fight the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact." "Enterprise" episodes showed wreckage of the Borg sphere on Earth, and mentioned Cochrane's recollections of the Borg attack. (We can assume that after the Enterprise-E returned to the future, it returned to the "Enterprise" timeline, rather than the one it was in at the beginning of "First Contact.") So the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" takes place in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline that was started in "First Contact."
B'wha? Where was that established besides on internet message boards?
Simple, logic. It seems Trekguide is the only one among who has any...

As for this movie not attracting casual or non-fans I think quite the opposite.
I've had people who are declared non-fans of Trek call me from the other side
of the country to tell me how excited they are. Friends who are hardcore Wars
fans have expressed to me that they and their friends can't wait to see it.
The hoots from the audience in the theatre when it played during
"The Day The Earth Stood Still"... honestly Bond was probably the wrong movie
audience to gauge the reaction to Trek. TDTESS being a classic scifi movie
remade as Trek will be, is a much better gauge I think. And the industry seems
much more prepared and willing to promote this one this time around.

I've seen far too much evidence to the contrary, that this Trek will be one
the average person or casual fans goes to see.
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Old December 14 2008, 06:07 AM   #34
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

T'Grinch wrote: View Post
In other time-travel stories, it didn't matter as our guys went forward into an unknown future. If this story ends with an alternate timeline, it means all that we knew, from TOS-VOY, are wiped.
Yes, but "all that we knew" were also alternate timelines. We saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the Federation was losing a 20-year war with the Klingons. Picard's decision to alter the timeline, by sending the Enterprise-C back in time to save a Klingon outpost, created the alternate timeline in which Worf joined Starfleet.

You accepted that altered timeline because you had already seen 60 episodes set in that timeline before you saw "Yesterday's Enterprise" (i.e., "all that we knew" from the first three years of TNG was an alternate timeline).

Likewise in DS9's "The Visitor," after Captain Sisko was lost and Starfleet abandoned DS9, old Jake Sisko altered the timeline, allowing Captain Sisko to live and win the Dominion war.

And in Voyager's "Endgame," after the Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant for 20 years, Admiral Janeway went back and created an alternate timeline, where the Voyager got back to Earth 20 years earlier. "Star Trek: Nemesis" was set in that alternate timeline, since we saw Admiral Janeway in that movie.

So "all that we knew" in Star Trek continuity has actually been dozens of alternate timelines. Spock and Nero going back in time and changing history is exactly what Picard did in "Star Trek: First Contact" and "Yesterday's Enterprise," what Janeway and Chakotay did in "Endgame" and "Timeless," what Jake Sisko did in "The Visitor," and what Kirk and Picard did in "Star Trek Generations."

We have seen many episodes where characters were in different timelines, with different ships, different uniforms, and different histories. There is absolutely nothing new about the events of "Star Trek XI" that we haven't seen a dozen times before.
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Old December 14 2008, 06:13 AM   #35
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

^^^ Agreed 100%
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Old December 14 2008, 06:35 AM   #36
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Maybe I'm reading Orci's words wrong or differently, but my understanding of it was that some things might change in the "past", by Nero and OldSpock's doings, but that, in the end, the universe will still end up to be the exact same universe we've all come to know, just with a few details changed, such as 1701 being built in Iowa, Kirk's backstory, etc. It resets a few things from the past, but the further and further you get in time, up until the late 24th Century, everything else is as is.

It's like the episode where Ben Sisko went back in time and BECAME Gabriel Bell, as evidenced by the picture of him in the computer that wasn't there before. (Technically everything after that point was alternate timeline too).

The point is, you can go back and CORRECT the timeline, so that it is as you know it should be (that's why we have OldSpock go back in time to do so), but there will be details changed, but you still end up where you should be.

That's my take on it, although from a quantum point of view, it's just another universe in which all that you see take place took place (in the 23rd century) but in that particular alternate universe, all that lead to what we know as the present in the 24 century (not sure if this paragraph made what I'm saying more or less clear lol). Point is, this line of thinking works 100% fine for me.
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Old December 14 2008, 07:31 AM   #37
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

trekkerguy wrote: View Post
Dropo wrote: View Post
TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
The entire series of "Star Trek: Enterprise" takes place in the alternate timeline created when Picard and the Enterprise-E went back in time to fight the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact." "Enterprise" episodes showed wreckage of the Borg sphere on Earth, and mentioned Cochrane's recollections of the Borg attack. (We can assume that after the Enterprise-E returned to the future, it returned to the "Enterprise" timeline, rather than the one it was in at the beginning of "First Contact.") So the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" takes place in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline that was started in "First Contact."
B'wha? Where was that established besides on internet message boards?
Simple, logic. It seems Trekguide is the only one among who has any...
Faulty logic, then. At least in regards to Enterprise. If TrekGuide is to be believed, if, Borg aside, Picard never went to the past, Archer and Co. would never have left Earth on the NX-01 and had adventures in space as seen in Enterprise.

Given the adventures they had on Enterprise and what Archer and Co. contributed to, I would be very doubtful TOS would have happened they way it was presented to us. I don't like the way I phrased that, but I cannot think of a better way at the moment.

Look at this example. In season 4, we had several adventures where Archer and Co. were directly responsible for various Trek-historical moments. Without Archer and Co, we wouldn't have the Klingon smoothness, the first formal relationship between Humans/Vulcans/Tellerates/Andorians, the prevention of a war between Andoria and Vulcan, and prevention of a Romulan "take-over" of Vulcan. Could all of these events happened w/o Archer in an Enterprise-less continuity? Sure, but considering one crew was an integral part of all of those events, I would have a hard time buying it.

Now, I get what TrekGuide is saying. That each time our heroes correct their timeline, it really is a case of "close enough." Personally, that is my personal theory of what would happen if time travel was real. However, I disagree with the notion that Archer and Co. did not have any adventures whatsoever until Picard went back in time. Having them all of a sudden exist after Picard and Co. return to the future would be such a historical radical change for their present to be exactly as it was before they left.

To make a comparison to real history. It would be as if someone went back in time and met Abraham Lincoln as a young boy. Say Lincoln would be influenced by this future person in a way where he decided to become a farmer instead of going into law (and subsequently politics). How different would today be if someone else was elected the US's 16th President?

In any event, Trek has been so caviler when it comes to time travel and they keep changing the rules of how it works (remember DS9's "Past Tense"? - the future didn't change until Sisko made the change in the episode instead of when he first went back).

Personally, I don't care if it is a reboot or in the canon Trek. I just want a good story. However, it seems like TPTB are trying too hard to appease long time fans and newbies alike. If I were them, I wouldn't bother explaining it at all instead of coming up with a convoluted explanation (especially if they are trying to reach a broad audience). Then again, I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole alternate timeline thing won't even be mentioned in the movie, but will rather be inferred.
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Old December 14 2008, 07:39 AM   #38
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

none of this explains why Chris Pine looks different than Bill Shatner.

seriously, is it that hard to clone Shatner???? they should've been on this years ago when they knew they'd one day need a young Shatner so that continuity-nazis would be satisfied
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Old December 14 2008, 07:59 AM   #39
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

^ Pfft...everybody knows that William Shatner has an army of clones at his disposal. JJA tried to license one out, but the asking price was far to high.
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Old December 14 2008, 06:31 PM   #40
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Dropo wrote: View Post
^ Pfft...everybody knows that William Shatner has an army of clones at his disposal. JJA tried to license one out, but the asking price was far to high.

Orci's explanation seemed like a lot of technobabble claptrap to me.

But...I remain open minded.

I'll be there opening day at the IMAX and will formulate my opinion after the end credits finish rolling and that Paramount logo fades from the screen.
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Old December 14 2008, 08:37 PM   #41
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
The entire series of "Enterprise" takes place in the alternate timeline created when Picard and the Enterprise-E went back in time to fight the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact." "Enterprise" episodes showed wreckage of the Borg sphere on Earth, and mentioned Cochrane's recollections of the Borg attack. (We can assume that after the Enterprise-E returned to the future, it returned to the "Enterprise" timeline, rather than the one it was in at the beginning of "First Contact.") So the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" takes place in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline that was started in "First Contact."
You could probably argue that most of Enterprise took place in a completely different timeline than the one the Enterprise E returned back from as the timeline for Enterprise changed the moment that Daniels opted to come back from the 31st century to 22nd, making everything from that point on a different timeline entirely.

Which brings up a question about "These Are the Voyages." That episode, as many pointed out, takes place as a visual record on a holodeck being viewed by Riker at the point of the TNG episode "Pegasus."

That being the case, that particular episode was part of the original TNG timeline, not part of the Enterprise timeline. As such, we can't be certain that anything that happened in that videolog actually happened within the context of the show we were watching.

So, Trip could actually be alive.
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Old December 14 2008, 08:50 PM   #42
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TrekGuide.com wrote: View Post
T'Grinch wrote: View Post
In other time-travel stories, it didn't matter as our guys went forward into an unknown future. If this story ends with an alternate timeline, it means all that we knew, from TOS-VOY, are wiped.
Yes, but "all that we knew" were also alternate timelines. We saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the Federation was losing a 20-year war with the Klingons. Picard's decision to alter the timeline, by sending the Enterprise-C back in time to save a Klingon outpost, created the alternate timeline in which Worf joined Starfleet.

You accepted that altered timeline because you had already seen 60 episodes set in that timeline before you saw "Yesterday's Enterprise" (i.e., "all that we knew" from the first three years of TNG was an alternate timeline).

Likewise in DS9's "The Visitor," after Captain Sisko was lost and Starfleet abandoned DS9, old Jake Sisko altered the timeline, allowing Captain Sisko to live and win the Dominion war.

And in Voyager's "Endgame," after the Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant for 20 years, Admiral Janeway went back and created an alternate timeline, where the Voyager got back to Earth 20 years earlier. "Star Trek: Nemesis" was set in that alternate timeline, since we saw Admiral Janeway in that movie.

So "all that we knew" in Star Trek continuity has actually been dozens of alternate timelines. Spock and Nero going back in time and changing history is exactly what Picard did in "Star Trek: First Contact" and "Yesterday's Enterprise," what Janeway and Chakotay did in "Endgame" and "Timeless," what Jake Sisko did in "The Visitor," and what Kirk and Picard did in "Star Trek Generations."

We have seen many episodes where characters were in different timelines, with different ships, different uniforms, and different histories. There is absolutely nothing new about the events of "Star Trek XI" that we haven't seen a dozen times before.
Sorry, but this is not entirely correct.

While I understand and agree with your point about having created alternate timelines all along the way, none of them needed to alter anything that came before it because they all came AFTER what we'd already seen.

So, "all that we knew" has been a part of a series of alterations that lead into the next chapter of the story.

Enterprise was the first real attempt in Trek to go backwards (and stay there) in Trek lore. Enterprise, as you point out, is a continuation of the timeline created by First Contact.

That new timeline that was created doesn't confict with anything that we had seen before it because THEY were the ones creating it.

In other words, the past for them was the same because they had brought it with them. So, Voyager was still stuck in the Delta quadrant, etc.

"Yesterday's Enterprise" would probably be a better example of your point because it starts in a timeline different than what we had previously seen. But, the effects of THAT time divergence is seen through out the rest of the TNG series.

Enterprise goes off on it's OWN tangent from the point that Daniels comes back, and we have no way of knowing much of anything about what happens beyond that.

What I find mazing is that many Trek fans have maintained since Enterprise first went on the air that it was non-canon and contributed nothing to what we have come to know as Trek. Yet, many of those same people are so willing to embrace THIS movie which now, at long last, openly admits that it will ignore everything that has ever happened in Trek and use Quantum Mechanics as a reason to justify it.

I do, however, find one thing about Orci's comments comforting. If this movie flops (and, I still believe that it will), there is nothing stopping them from ignoring that it ever existed and doing something post-Nemesis. It need not have any bearing on any future Trek projects, should there actually happen to be any.
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Old December 14 2008, 09:16 PM   #43
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

TrekGuide, I've answered over in the thread in the STXI forum. No use doing the same conversation twice.
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Old December 14 2008, 10:34 PM   #44
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Jolly St. Worf wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm reading Orci's words wrong or differently, but my understanding of it was that some things might change in the "past", by Nero and OldSpock's doings, but that, in the end, the universe will still end up to be the exact same universe we've all come to know, just with a few details changed, such as 1701 being built in Iowa, Kirk's backstory, etc. It resets a few things from the past, but the further and further you get in time, up until the late 24th Century, everything else is as is.

It's like the episode where Ben Sisko went back in time and BECAME Gabriel Bell, as evidenced by the picture of him in the computer that wasn't there before. (Technically everything after that point was alternate timeline too).

The point is, you can go back and CORRECT the timeline, so that it is as you know it should be (that's why we have OldSpock go back in time to do so), but there will be details changed, but you still end up where you should be.

That's my take on it, although from a quantum point of view, it's just another universe in which all that you see take place took place (in the 23rd century) but in that particular alternate universe, all that lead to what we know as the present in the 24 century (not sure if this paragraph made what I'm saying more or less clear lol). Point is, this line of thinking works 100% fine for me.
That's what I got as well. The timeline will tend towards the most probable outcome. Therefore, it will correct itself and have the same probable outcome. To use "First Contact" and "Enterprise", Archer was always going to be the captain of that flight, just some of the circumstances of that happening changed a bit. Cochrane was going to have First Contact on that day, just the circumstances changed a bit. However, in the larger scope, the same things happened, just slightly differently.

In the new movie, the outcome (TOS) still happens, just what lead up to it happened a bit differently.

A positive side effect is that unprobable outcomes are more likely to change to probable outcomes. So bye-bye "Spock's Brain"!
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Old December 15 2008, 01:36 AM   #45
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

[quote=Kringus;2404294]
Jolly St. Worf wrote: View Post

A positive side effect is that unprobable outcomes are more likely to change to probable outcomes. So bye-bye "Spock's Brain"!
No way!!!

I think Spock's Brain will still have happened, but it'll be a remastered version of events -- one that ties into Vulcan mythology.

The Eyemorg spaceship will be a souped-up, pumped up uber-redesigned ion powered starship. Spock recognizes the ship and uncharacterically shows emotion -- telling Kirk to deploy shields! He says the ship resembles something from Vulcan mythology -- the "chariot" of a race of beings know as the "Takers" that kidnaps Vulcans in their sleep and takes them into unknown space for purposes unknown. They were known as the givers of pain and delight pr "The Takers". Kirk starts to ask Spock a question when Kara materializes on the bridge. The Eyemorgs/Morgs will have forehead ridges and Ferengi/Vorta like ears (in other words, their ears are molded into their heads. Why? I dunno. Sounds cool.). Females will have a different skin tone than the males...and the mini skirts and go-go boots will be gone. When Kirk and Co. beam down to Sigma Draconis, they will be wearing snow gear amidst a huge blizzard. Robo Spock will have a blinking electronic beanie on...and will float rather than walk...using anti-grav technology to make him float.

Discussion of Spock's katra take place in sickbay between Bones and Kirk and Scotty. Sarek elaborates on the Vulcan myth of the "Takers" and tells Kirk if they don't get Spock's Brain retrieved within a certain timeframe then even his Katra will be dead -- Spock will be lost forever! Kirk tells Sarek every myth has its basis in reality...and he has a hunch that that reality exists in the Sigma Draconis star system (the destination of the ion ship).

After Kirk and Co. beam down to Sigma Draconis, they are attacked by a massively huge tentacled snow monster called the "Qah-Queej" (Pronounced "CAH-KEEJ")which is brought down by the Morgs (using guns that fire implant devices that produce and electric charge)! After Kirk and Co. beam down to Sigma Draconis, they are attacked by a massively huge tentacled snow monster called the "Qah-Queej" (Pronounced "CAH-KEEJ")which is brought down by the Morgs (using guns that fire implant devices that produce and electric charge)! "Impressive weaponry..." Kirk tells the Morg leader, Trong. "Yes, but these weapons are useless against the Takers. They can bring down the mighty Qah-Queej and yet are worthless against the Takers. Ironic...do you not think?", sayeth Trong. "Who...are...the Takers" says Kirk. "The Takers come for all like us...and bring others from beyond the sky. They bring pain and delight", says Trong.

The pain-giving devices are kind of Borg technology implants (Not Borg...but you know what I mean...).

Kara tells Kirk and Co. that only Vulcan brains can sustain life on their planet. They tried other aliens millennium ago, but they did not have the longevity of Vulcan brains due to a life-giving aura of energy they produce that other alien brains did not (Katra?).

The subject of the Katra is a very mysterious thing to Kirk/McCoy...they don't really know what it is at this point. It's foreshadowing for the events of Star Trek III!

McCoy uses the remastered teacher device and learns that the Takers have been harvesting Vulcan brains for their technology and are the SOURCE of the Vulcan myth!

After the alternate universe events occur -- Spock runs around with a nasty scar on his forehead from the surgery of brain replacement -- until McCoy uses the tri-laser skin refurbisher to fix it!

Yeah...that's about it...whatever else I failed to update here is the same as in the original timeline version.

But...bottom line...Spock's Brain WAS/IS stolen! In fact, the whole timeline now revolves around it.

Last edited by QuasarVM; December 15 2008 at 01:47 AM.
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