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Old December 13 2008, 05:52 PM   #16
trekkerguy
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Dropo wrote: View Post
I wonder if they'll even touch upon the alternate timeline stuff in the actual movie or if it'll just be inferred.

However, one thing remains consistent in both timelines: Enterprise.
As I've repeated many times, more than likely not. It's just a tidbit for us to chew on. The general audience, even most Trek fans that don't scour the interwebz won't know the difference, all they'll see is a rebooting of the product Star Trek and this will become the "Main" timeline from here on out.

The rest is simply for us to play with, bitch about, whatever.
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Old December 13 2008, 07:29 PM   #17
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Seems to me that what is now the "main" timeline will be an "alternate" timeline and the new timeline will become the main. Not sure as a long-term fan how I'll like that.

However, it's too early to worry about it. Without seeing the movie, I don't know what will happen, if there is a timeline redirect back to the original, etc. etc. So I'll wait and see.

If tptb are looking for new fans, they're out-of-luck. John Q. Public's reaction to Star Trek is *yawn*. When I was seeing the Bond movie and the trailer played, I actually heard someone say, "Oh, it's only Star Trek."
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Old December 13 2008, 07:46 PM   #18
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

I think what will happen is that they use this excuse to setup the alternate timeline for the movie, but by the movies end it will revert back to the more familiar one, with a closing showing the 'original' Enterprise and not the one they keep showing for the movie.
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Old December 13 2008, 07:51 PM   #19
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Ugh..

Why the explanation to appease the canon freaks? Why not just say "fuck it", and reboot?
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Old December 13 2008, 08:17 PM   #20
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

^^ Hopefully, they have higher standards than that.

The Multiverse explanation is unnecessary. There have been dozens of time travel stories in Trek and each one has resulted in changes to the timeline, from the insignificant ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday") to the monumental (First Contact). As long as nothing in the movie violates canon, we're all set. It's just more time travel.
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Old December 13 2008, 08:38 PM   #21
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Anyone who's paid close attention to the past 700 episodes and 10 movies of "Star Trek" will recognize two basic facts:

1. Every instance of time travel uses a different method and scientific rationale (warp-10 slingshot, Guardian of Forever, chronometric displacement, Bajoran Orb of Time, temporal Nexus, time vortex, etc.), and has a different result (self-fulfilling time loop, multiple parallel timelines, altered timelines that can be "repaired" through further meddling, etc.).

2. Through all the "Star Trek" series, there have been at least two dozen distinct and mutually exclusive timelines (not even including the self-fulfilling causality loops). For example, in TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise," it depicted the original timeline where the Federation was at war with the Klingons; Picard's decision to send the Enterprise-C back in time to save a Klingon outpost created the alternate timeline that we see in every other TNG episode, where Worf serves in Starfleet and the Klingons are allies.

The entire series of "Enterprise" takes place in the alternate timeline created when Picard and the Enterprise-E went back in time to fight the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact." "Enterprise" episodes showed wreckage of the Borg sphere on Earth, and mentioned Cochrane's recollections of the Borg attack. (We can assume that after the Enterprise-E returned to the future, it returned to the "Enterprise" timeline, rather than the one it was in at the beginning of "First Contact.") So the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" takes place in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline that was started in "First Contact."

The final episode of "Voyager" depicted Admiral Janeway creating a new timeline where the U.S.S. Voyager got back to Earth 20 years early. This alternate timeline was continued in the movie "Star Trek: Nemesis," as evidenced by Admiral Janeway's appearance in that film (when the Voyager and Captain Janeway would still be trapped in the Delta Quadrant for another 20 years in the "original" timeline).

There are dozens of other episodes over the past 40 years where new timelines are created within the episode, and then the series just continues on from the point of view of that timeline.

In fact, the last four "Star Trek" movies have each taken place in a different timeline from each other.

"Generations" created a new timeline where the sun did NOT explode, and everyone did NOT die, due to Picard and Kirk changing the timeline.

"First Contact" started in the "Generations" timeline, then passed through the Borg-assimilated-Earth timeline, then created the "Star Trek: Enterprise" timeline where the Borg attacked Earth but were stopped.

"Insurrection" took place in the future of the "Star Trek: Enterprise" timeline created in "First Contact."

"Nemesis" took place in the "Admiral Janeway" timeline that was created in the "Voyager" finale.

And, according to this latest report, "Star Trek XI" will take place in yet another timeline, possibly starting in the "Admiral Janeway" timeline of "Nemesis," then spawning its own alternate timeline through time travel.

My point is that each of the last five "Star Trek" movies has taken place in a different timeline from the one before it. It makes no sense to criticize the "Star Trek XI" writers for this, when it has already been going on in the four previous films (whether the writers were aware of it or not).

Aesthetically, every one of the movies has taken liberties with set design and costumes and makeup, starting with "The Motion Picture," so whether the new Enterprise bridge's glass-and-chrome design is the result of an alternate timeline, or just the filmmakers' creative license, it is nothing that hasn't been done a dozen times before.

There is no "official" "Star Trek" timeline. The series has taken place through dozens of mutually exclusive timelines, so creating just one more timeline in this new movie will not invalidate all 750 past episodes; it will just add one more timeline to the dozens that have already been created and incorporated into the series.
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Old December 13 2008, 08:48 PM   #22
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

T'Grinch wrote: View Post

Seems to me that what is now the "main" timeline will be an "alternate" timeline and the new timeline will become the main. Not sure as a long-term fan how I'll like that.


Same here, although I'm willing to wait and pass complete and final judgement on it until I've actually seen the whole thing. If Team Abrams wants to go with the quantum mechanics explanation of things, then fine, I guess I can handle it, though that seems to fly in the face of how time-travel has been handled in the past on Trek. What makes this instance of temporal displacement different from when the Borg changed history or McCoy saved Keeler's life, altering every event afterwards?

By this theory, if I go back in time to advise myself of a key event that could change my career path for the better, I haven't changed history as much as I've creating a new universe that branched off from that point, in which the version of me in that new universe might have better luck than the original me, whose universe still exists.

Am I getting it right?
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Old December 13 2008, 09:20 PM   #23
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

When I was seeing the Bond movie and the trailer played, I actually heard someone say, "Oh, it's only Star Trek."
When I see a Bond trailer, I say, "Oh, it's only James Bond."

Only a minority of people who watch Bond movies are Bond fans, who care about continuity and whatnot. They just want something fast-paced and well-made to entertain them for their ten bucks. Same is true of Star Trek (or Star Wars or anything else really).

And time travel plotlines rarely make sense. Orci is running up against the classic problem:

1. To avoid logic-busting paradoxes, you must assume that nobody travels to their own future or past. They travel to the future or past of alternative timelines, where it is impossible for them to kill their own grandfather, because that grandpa isn't in this timeline. (The issue of whether these timelines "always existed" or are created by the time traveller is a separate issue and only occasionally important.)

2. But if the characters travel to alternate timelines, then why do the readers/viewers care about what happens? It's not the timeline that "counts."

Every so often, I find a book (not often a movie or TV episode) that handles this problem well, by finding a way to make us care about the "fake timeline." Which after all, isn't fake but just as legitimate as all the other infinite numbers of possible timelines, including the one the character is from. The more usual thing is for the writers to gloss the issue over and hope we aren't paying too much attention.

The other, rare, way of handling the problem: assume there's one timeline but predestination reigns supreme and the timeline won't allow you to change it. That's what Twelve Monkeys did. The problem then becomes, why do you care about a story when the protagonist is helpless? Twelve Monkeys demonstrated that you can pull it off as a tragedy, but even that approach will work only in the short form of a movie. Maybe there have been novels that can pull this off. I doubt a TV series could make it work.
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Old December 13 2008, 10:29 PM   #24
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Bacl wrote: View Post
Okay...so if Nero goes to an alternate timeline to try and kill Kirk or whatever...then why does spock follow him??? If nothing he does will change history, at least not Spock's timeline's history, then why not let the lunatic vanish forever and be done with it all?

And before you say that Spock is still trying to protect people, his friends, just alternate versions of them that will be harmed by Nero...there are infinite alternate timelines and in many Kirk and Co. are likely getting killed by the second.
Yes maybe there are infinite alternate timelines where Kirks and Vulcan are being destroyed every second... So what ?

When Spock has the chance to do something about one of those, threatened by someone he likely knows from his own universe he should just shrug and say "Fuck them, I'll stay home and watch Tv ?"

We don't know that much about the story. Maybe Spock is even responsible somehow about Nero's escape from prison or his travel to the past.

This all seems ridiculous and unneeded. Timelines. For god's sake.
It seems ridiculous and unneeded to me to pass final judgment on something you have not all the info about.
It might be ridiculous indeed or it might make perfect sense once we see the movie and have the full picture.
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Old December 13 2008, 10:35 PM   #25
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

ArthurKing wrote: View Post
Translation:

By developing a cursory understanding of modern physics, we will claim that we can do whatever we want with the lineage of a 40-year franchise and chalk up any and all discrepancies to our being in an 'alternate but non-exclusive timeline!' Yes! It gets better by the day!
For an encore, Orci then determines that black is white, and is promptly run over at the next zebra crossing.
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Old December 13 2008, 10:52 PM   #26
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Why do you all hate America?
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Old December 13 2008, 11:22 PM   #27
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Saul wrote: View Post
Spock might not be sure that it does create a new timeline. He might think that it could quite possibly effect his own. Which makes sense since we see from "First Contact" that the moment the Borg went back, the current timeline change. There was no spin off alternate timeline.
There was, but we simply don't see it.

Star Trek has long gone by the notion that when you go back in time that, so long as you return to the period in which you went back that things remain unchanged.

Nero and Spock leaving the Nemesis time period, as this article points out, creates an entirely new timeline. The old one still exists, just not for Spock or Nero as they will likely both be dead before the end of this movie.

Ultimately, what Orci is saying is that everything we've come to know as Trek still exists, this movie simply isn't a part of it.

Frankly, I think it's about time he admitted it.

Jingle Bond wrote: View Post
Ugh..

Why the explanation to appease the canon freaks? Why not just say "fuck it", and reboot?
Essentially, that's what they've done. This movie doesn't violate canon because the canon that we know as Star Trek doesn't exist in this timeline.

If this movie flops, then it will be as though it never existed, with the notable exception that Spock will be gone and likely won't be coming back. If it's a success, then it will be as though TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager never existed as they will no doubt continue with this timeline.

Although, neither precludes them returning to the post-Nemesis time period for another movie or a mini-series, series or whatever.

RJDrummerBoy wrote: View Post
^^ Hopefully, they have higher standards than that.

The Multiverse explanation is unnecessary. There have been dozens of time travel stories in Trek and each one has resulted in changes to the timeline, from the insignificant ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday") to the monumental (First Contact). As long as nothing in the movie violates canon, we're all set. It's just more time travel.
As I said, there is no canon to violate within the context of this movie. It creates it's own.

The problem with your "it's just more time travel" scenerio is that in pretty much every other case of time travel, the person doing the time traveling returns to their original time period. That won't be the case here as Spock and Nero will likely be dead by the end of the movie. So, if they continue making movies based on THIS movie, it will continue from the end of this movie, not from anything we know as Trek.
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Old December 14 2008, 01:12 AM   #28
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Bacl wrote: View Post
Okay...so if Nero goes to an alternate timeline to try and kill Kirk or whatever...then why does spock follow him??? If nothing he does will change history, at least not Spock's timeline's history, then why not let the lunatic vanish forever and be done with it all?

And before you say that Spock is still trying to protect people, his friends, just alternate versions of them that will be harmed by Nero...there are infinite alternate timelines and in many Kirk and Co. are likely getting killed by the second.

This all seems ridiculous and unneeded. Timelines. For god's sake.
My thoughts exactly. This movie may look like it has fun action but IMO it's really screwing around with established Trek canon and I predict I will not be a fan as a result. I have to admit that part of me just wants to see Trek die rather than see it get all screwed up like this.

Why can't they just make another TNG era movie with a *GASP* good story?!?!

I'm gonna go watch some DS9 and weep for what has become of Trek.
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Old December 14 2008, 02:01 AM   #29
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

So the new movie that looks like utter shit is basically it's own alternate shitverse timeline? Excellent!
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Old December 14 2008, 02:15 AM   #30
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Re: Orci On Canon And Timelines

Wow... no satisfying anyone with this huh? Frankly this is the explanation I was waiting for. It's not hard to follow at all. The 40 year history of Trek from the original series through TNG DS9 VOY and ENT remains canon and isn't erased or "corrected" for modern tastes. The movie if successful creates its own timeline of adventures that don't function as 'prequels' to the later series. No dumb ass 'fansplinations' trying to tie a modern looking Trek with its primitive originals. Too many so called fans want to hate on this movie because somehow it's not "their" Trek and to hell with it. Personally I wanted a total (and more radical) reboot of the series. But if they're going to play with Time Travel(TM) then this is as good an explanation and makes it easier to watch the film with an open mind.

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