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Old December 19 2008, 11:57 PM   #91
CaptJimboJones
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here.

I think that the whole thing of having Kes as a villain is horrible and totally out of character. It would have been as portraying Picard as a drunken alcoholic or Riker as a psychotic mass murder who would "take out" every crewmember who he suspected to threaten his post as Number One.

It would be just totally wrong.

I can certainly understand that view, particularly if you were a big fan of Kes. Personally, her character never worked very well for me, which is probably why I preferred seeing her as a "bad guy."

But like you said, we'll just have to disagree on that point, without being disagreeable.
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Old December 20 2008, 07:42 AM   #92
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
In an interview with Braga in Star Trek: Communicator. He said it was his intent to make Kes a reaccuring villian for the show. He felt it was easier to expore her powers by making her a bad guy instead of a good one. It's unsure why he never went thru with the idea.
It looks like some after-construction to me, made to "justify" the character destruction in "Fury".

If it really had been the intention to make Kes the "bad guy", then why didn't they go ahead with that from the start instead of bringing back the character for only one episode in order to ruin, destroy and kill off the character? (Yes, the original intent was to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change their minds about that.)

Besides that, if there had been any such intents, it would have been brought up earlier as some lame excuse to why they did get rid of the character in season 4.

kes was also very unbelievable as a villain. Everyone who have watched season 1-3 could see that Kes was the direct opposite of a villain. She was a nice, friendly and gentle person who rather would sacrifice herself than to harm her crewmates. The scenario with her as a villain isn't believable.

Compare that to Seska who had a mean streak from the beginning. As for villains, Seven (with her troubled mind and tragic background) and the instable Torres would have been more believable as villains than Kes.
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Old December 20 2008, 08:00 PM   #93
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
The Ocampa obviously go through puberty later in their lives than humans do.
Exactly. All that means is they are then able to reproduce. That may or may not mean they are sexually active before that. As for Kes and Neelix, their main decision in "Elogium" was not whether or not to have sex, it was whether or not to have sex with the intention of having a child. After all the "Elogium" only comes once in a lifetime but there were indications in other episodes that Kes could have a sexual relationship at any time.
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Old December 20 2008, 09:35 PM   #94
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
In an interview with Braga in Star Trek: Communicator. He said it was his intent to make Kes a reaccuring villian for the show. He felt it was easier to expore her powers by making her a bad guy instead of a good one. It's unsure why he never went thru with the idea.
It looks like some after-construction to me, made to "justify" the character destruction in "Fury".

If it really had been the intention to make Kes the "bad guy", then why didn't they go ahead with that from the start instead of bringing back the character for only one episode in order to ruin, destroy and kill off the character? (Yes, the original intent was to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change their minds about that.)

Besides that, if there had been any such intents, it would have been brought up earlier as some lame excuse to why they did get rid of the character in season 4.

kes was also very unbelievable as a villain. Everyone who have watched season 1-3 could see that Kes was the direct opposite of a villain. She was a nice, friendly and gentle person who rather would sacrifice herself than to harm her crewmates. The scenario with her as a villain isn't believable.

Compare that to Seska who had a mean streak from the beginning. As for villains, Seven (with her troubled mind and tragic background) and the instable Torres would have been more believable as villains than Kes.
What are you talking about?


Braga wrote and produced Voyager.

If he wrote Kes to be nice and innocent, he can also write her to be a villian. Him, Berman & Taylor created her, if anyone is to say what they want done with the character and why, it would be them. Kes is a character of fiction, let's not forget that. She is whatever they write her to be.

Maybe Braga had other ideas for the show, maybe there wasn't any budget to keep her as a villian, I don't know. Who else would know that other than Braga?

BTW, the interview in which he said that wasn't "after construction" considering he gave it before the episode aired. It was due to that article and magazine cover that everybody knew Kes was coming back.
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Old December 21 2008, 08:31 AM   #95
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
In an interview with Braga in Star Trek: Communicator. He said it was his intent to make Kes a reaccuring villian for the show. He felt it was easier to expore her powers by making her a bad guy instead of a good one. It's unsure why he never went thru with the idea.
It looks like some after-construction to me, made to "justify" the character destruction in "Fury".

If it really had been the intention to make Kes the "bad guy", then why didn't they go ahead with that from the start instead of bringing back the character for only one episode in order to ruin, destroy and kill off the character? (Yes, the original intent was to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change their minds about that.)

Besides that, if there had been any such intents, it would have been brought up earlier as some lame excuse to why they did get rid of the character in season 4.

kes was also very unbelievable as a villain. Everyone who have watched season 1-3 could see that Kes was the direct opposite of a villain. She was a nice, friendly and gentle person who rather would sacrifice herself than to harm her crewmates. The scenario with her as a villain isn't believable.

Compare that to Seska who had a mean streak from the beginning. As for villains, Seven (with her troubled mind and tragic background) and the instable Torres would have been more believable as villains than Kes.
What are you talking about?


Braga wrote and produced Voyager.

If he wrote Kes to be nice and innocent, he can also write her to be a villian. Him, Berman & Taylor created her, if anyone is to say what they want done with the character and why, it would be them. Kes is a character of fiction, let's not forget that. She is whatever they write her to be.

Maybe Braga had other ideas for the show, maybe there wasn't any budget to keep her as a villian, I don't know. Who else would know that other than Braga?

BTW, the interview in which he said that wasn't "after construction" considering he gave it before the episode aired. It was due to that article and magazine cover that everybody knew Kes was coming back.
His statement was made around the time "Fury" was going to be aired. There were never any hints or antyhing about Kes becoming a villain during seasons 1-3 or after she was kicked out in season 4. If there had been any such plans, I'm sure that they would have mentioned it as another "reason" for kicking out the character in season 4, like "oh, we had plans to make her a villain but...."

And it still doesn't explain why they have to bring her back for one, single episode in which they totally ruined and destroyed the character and also had planned to kill her off.

Not to mention that the story in which they brought her back for the destruction was bad, unconvincing and unbelievable.

OK, they created the character and can do what they like but they must take into consideration that ruining and destroying a main character will make many fans angry and dissapointed which in the long run will lead to a decrease in viewing and ratings.

Which is what has happened after the character destruction made in "Generations", "The Gift", "Fury", "Endgame" and perhaps some other episodes as well.
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Old December 22 2008, 02:40 AM   #96
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

pimp wrote: View Post
Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????

I definitely noticed this too. I was wondering if I was the only one since there is little mention of her obvoious weight gain anywhere (probably because they didn't want to hurt poor Jennifer Lien's feelings!).

I found it quite irritating really since it's not as if the crew wouldn't have noticed a, shall we say, larger, Kes than they were used to.
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Old December 22 2008, 03:56 AM   #97
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

LLAP wrote: View Post
pimp wrote: View Post
Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????

I definitely noticed this too. I was wondering if I was the only one since there is little mention of her obvoious weight gain anywhere (probably because they didn't want to hurt poor Jennifer Lien's feelings!).

I found it quite irritating really since it's not as if the crew wouldn't have noticed a, shall we say, larger, Kes than they were used to.
I do not think she got FAT! Her uniform changed and they made her up different. When she first got on the show, she was ok. When Kes left the show, she sure looked like a woman
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Old December 22 2008, 04:19 AM   #98
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Oh I'm not saying she didn't look great, just that there is certainly a difference that cannot be placed on just age - after all she ain't that much older in Fury than she was in season 1 (early 20s I think). I might get some screen-caps to make sure I'm not deluded hehe
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Old December 22 2008, 07:19 AM   #99
Lynx
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

LLAP wrote: View Post
pimp wrote: View Post
Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????

I definitely noticed this too. I was wondering if I was the only one since there is little mention of her obvoious weight gain anywhere (probably because they didn't want to hurt poor Jennifer Lien's feelings!).

I found it quite irritating really since it's not as if the crew wouldn't have noticed a, shall we say, larger, Kes than they were used to.
She obviously had a sligt weight gain but not so much that it was disturbing in any way.

There were others who had weight gains too during those years, Robert Duncan McNeill for example. But that's seldom mentioned.

Anyway, who cares about "Fury"? That episode was so bad and filled with flaws and contradictions so that a person's weight gain hardly has any impact
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Old December 22 2008, 04:31 PM   #100
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

It looks like some after-construction to me, made to "justify" the character destruction in "Fury".

If it really had been the intention to make Kes the "bad guy", then why didn't they go ahead with that from the start instead of bringing back the character for only one episode in order to ruin, destroy and kill off the character? (Yes, the original intent was to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change their minds about that.)

Besides that, if there had been any such intents, it would have been brought up earlier as some lame excuse to why they did get rid of the character in season 4.

kes was also very unbelievable as a villain. Everyone who have watched season 1-3 could see that Kes was the direct opposite of a villain. She was a nice, friendly and gentle person who rather would sacrifice herself than to harm her crewmates. The scenario with her as a villain isn't believable.

Compare that to Seska who had a mean streak from the beginning. As for villains, Seven (with her troubled mind and tragic background) and the instable Torres would have been more believable as villains than Kes.
What are you talking about?


Braga wrote and produced Voyager.

If he wrote Kes to be nice and innocent, he can also write her to be a villian. Him, Berman & Taylor created her, if anyone is to say what they want done with the character and why, it would be them. Kes is a character of fiction, let's not forget that. She is whatever they write her to be.

Maybe Braga had other ideas for the show, maybe there wasn't any budget to keep her as a villian, I don't know. Who else would know that other than Braga?

BTW, the interview in which he said that wasn't "after construction" considering he gave it before the episode aired. It was due to that article and magazine cover that everybody knew Kes was coming back.
His statement was made around the time "Fury" was going to be aired. There were never any hints or antyhing about Kes becoming a villain during seasons 1-3 or after she was kicked out in season 4. If there had been any such plans, I'm sure that they would have mentioned it as another "reason" for kicking out the character in season 4, like "oh, we had plans to make her a villain but...."

And it still doesn't explain why they have to bring her back for one, single episode in which they totally ruined and destroyed the character and also had planned to kill her off.

Not to mention that the story in which they brought her back for the destruction was bad, unconvincing and unbelievable.

OK, they created the character and can do what they like but they must take into consideration that ruining and destroying a main character will make many fans angry and dissapointed which in the long run will lead to a decrease in viewing and ratings.

Which is what has happened after the character destruction made in "Generations", "The Gift", "Fury", "Endgame" and perhaps some other episodes as well.
I'm sorry, I still don't understand what your talking about.

Kes' return in "Fury" didn't impact Voyager's ratings at all. Just as one fans disappointment in the development of one character doesn't overrule all the other fans of the show that stuck with it for the other cast members. Kes hasn't been a main character in 3 years, one ep. at the end of 6 season when 7 season has already been contracted isn't going to affect the show or it's ratings at this point. TPTB really weren't concerned anymore about Kes fans that hadn't been loyal to the show for all that time, they had plenty of Seven, Janeway, Torres, Doc., Tuvok & Paris fans to keep the show running without them.

The show is called Star Trek: Voyager not Star Trek: Kes.
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Old December 22 2008, 07:34 PM   #101
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

If those in charge weren't concerned anymore over the Kes fans who "hadn't been loyal to the show", they could at least have been cordial enough not to insult them even more.

Wasn't it enough that they did kick out Kes without an acceptable reason in season 4? Was it necessary to bring back the character-only to destroy her?
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Old December 22 2008, 07:51 PM   #102
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
If those in charge weren't concerned anymore over the Kes fans who "hadn't been loyal to the show", they could at least have been cordial enough not to insult them even more.

Wasn't it enough that they did kick out Kes without an acceptable reason in season 4? Was it necessary to bring back the character-only to destroy her?
Come on, stop pulling my leg.

You know as well as I there wouldn't be any reason you'd find acceptable for Kes leaving. Would you rather she die?

As I said before, they created the character and they can do whatever they wish. They don't feel they destroyed the character and I don't see very many Kes fans voicing their disapproval other than yourself. I've heard compliants, yes but not to the degree you're making it out. They were cordial enough to bring her back but nobody can for see the future to know a few wouldn't like it. The world would be perfect if that could happen.
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Old December 22 2008, 10:01 PM   #103
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
If those in charge weren't concerned anymore over the Kes fans who "hadn't been loyal to the show", they could at least have been cordial enough not to insult them even more.

Wasn't it enough that they did kick out Kes without an acceptable reason in season 4? Was it necessary to bring back the character-only to destroy her?
Come on, stop pulling my leg.

You know as well as I there wouldn't be any reason you'd find acceptable for Kes leaving. Would you rather she die?

As I said before, they created the character and they can do whatever they wish. They don't feel they destroyed the character and I don't see very many Kes fans voicing their disapproval other than yourself. I've heard compliants, yes but not to the degree you're making it out. They were cordial enough to bring her back but nobody can for see the future to know a few wouldn't like it. The world would be perfect if that could happen.
Well, they were actually planning to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change that.

But what they did to the character in "Fury" was worse than death.

There have been a lot of complaints about what happened in "Fury", not only from Kes fans. Many Voyager fans hated the way they destroyed a main character like they did.

If they didn't realize that they did destroy the character, then they must be incredible stupid. I mean, they couldn't really believe that the fans of the character would like the episode, could they?

I'm sure that they did notice the reaction from the fans (in fact, I know that they were aware of the reaction from the fans because of some contacts I had at that time). Still, no apology or even a plausible explanation. They did have a chance to correct the damage in some season 7 episode but they didn't.

But I hope that some good author will come up with a book in which Kes is restored to normal and brought back as a permanent main character in future Voyager books again.
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Old December 22 2008, 10:23 PM   #104
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
If those in charge weren't concerned anymore over the Kes fans who "hadn't been loyal to the show", they could at least have been cordial enough not to insult them even more.

Wasn't it enough that they did kick out Kes without an acceptable reason in season 4? Was it necessary to bring back the character-only to destroy her?
Come on, stop pulling my leg.

You know as well as I there wouldn't be any reason you'd find acceptable for Kes leaving. Would you rather she die?

As I said before, they created the character and they can do whatever they wish. They don't feel they destroyed the character and I don't see very many Kes fans voicing their disapproval other than yourself. I've heard compliants, yes but not to the degree you're making it out. They were cordial enough to bring her back but nobody can for see the future to know a few wouldn't like it. The world would be perfect if that could happen.
Well, they were actually planning to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change that.

But what they did to the character in "Fury" was worse than death.

There have been a lot of complaints about what happened in "Fury", not only from Kes fans. Many Voyager fans hated the way they destroyed a main character like they did.

If they didn't realize that they did destroy the character, then they must be incredible stupid. I mean, they couldn't really believe that the fans of the character would like the episode, could they?

I'm sure that they did notice the reaction from the fans (in fact, I know that they were aware of the reaction from the fans because of some contacts I had at that time). Still, no apology or even a plausible explanation. They did have a chance to correct the damage in some season 7 episode but they didn't.

But I hope that some good author will come up with a book in which Kes is restored to normal and brought back as a permanent main character in future Voyager books again.
Apology for what?

They gave us 7 years of a show. They don't need to apologize for anything. There was even a post in the news forum about B&B and many here think they deserve praise dispite the few short comings & bumps in the road. Many understand that it's not easy writing and producing any series much less one with a limited audience like Trek. After TNG & DS9, it's amazing they still found stories to write about for Voyager or ENT.

Besides, they already admitted the character was poorly done which is why they wrote her out in the first place.

I'm sorry but one on-going complaint about one character and one or two eps. is absolutely nothing compared to writing & producing 4 spin off shows, 3 of which lasted 7 years. 4 shows with a cast of 9 or more for each, over 24 or more eps. each season all of which had to be written for. On that grand of a scale they had to work on, one character like Kes meant nothing. Besides, Kes had been off the show for 4 years and Voyager's been over for even longer. Many have moved on way beyond this, even fewer & fewer complain about "Endgame" each year as the show gets older.
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Old December 22 2008, 11:38 PM   #105
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

There are many fans who are dissatisfied with Berman and Braga.

I will give them all credit for coming up with TNG, DS9 and Voyager, the characters and the stories. In fact, they did a very good job with TNG.

But their work with Voyager was sloppy and uninspired and Enterprise was something of a failure.

They did also some really stupid things which p***ed off many loyal fans.

The TOS fans hate what they did to Kirk in "Generations".

The Kes fans hate what they did to Kes in "Fury" and "The Gift".

The J/C fans hate the Seven-Chakotay relationship.

Add to that many casual fans of Trek who simply think that they made a bad job with Voyager and Enterprise.

They did actually succed in alienating certain groups of fans which may have had an impact on Star Trek's popularity.

And yes, I do think that they owe certain fans an apology.

And if they admitted that "the character was poorly done" (which I don't think) then it is their failure. In other words, they didn't do a good job when they couldn't come up with something better for the character.

Besides that, I still see no reason to bringing back "the poorly done" character they already had ditched only to ruin and destroy that character. Makes no sense.
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