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Old December 19 2008, 01:59 AM   #76
teacake
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
And don't forget she was capable of becoming a mother. Hardly a child.
She wasn't capable of having children until she was 4 or 5, the Elogium was premature remember.

I guess Kes was a pre-teen.
Oh I had forgotten that, thanks!

It's a good example of how human terminology and expectations don't always apply to other species. If the Ocampan formed intimate relationships at the age Kes is on VOY then that is all that matters as to her maturity IMHO.
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Old December 19 2008, 02:12 AM   #77
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
She wasn't capable of having children until she was 4 or 5, the Elogium was premature remember.

I guess Kes was a pre-teen.
Pre-teen is under 13!! That would have made her the youngest member on Voyager. Darn, when WESTLEY CRUSHER was a pre-teen on Enterprise Picard said *NO CHILDREN ON THE BRIDGE*
Do you count Niomi Wildman or only main cast members?
Niomi Wildman was not born before Neelix and Kes were seeing each other for the first time.
You have jumped a few seasons.
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Old December 19 2008, 02:25 AM   #78
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
And don't forget she was capable of becoming a mother. Hardly a child.
She wasn't capable of having children until she was 4 or 5, the Elogium was premature remember.

I guess Kes was a pre-teen.
Oh I had forgotten that, thanks!

It's a good example of how human terminology and expectations don't always apply to other species. If the Ocampan formed intimate relationships at the age Kes is on VOY then that is all that matters as to her maturity IMHO.
I honent don't think Neelix and Kes were ever "intimate" in their relationship. The Elogium marked puberty, so Kes would have no desire for intercourse before then. Neelix was lonely but he wasn't a rapist. During the ep. "Elogium" Kes asks Neelix if he would want to be her mate. Asking it that way seemed to confirm they weren't sexually active together.
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Old December 19 2008, 06:57 AM   #79
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
And don't forget she was capable of becoming a mother. Hardly a child.
She wasn't capable of having children until she was 4 or 5, the Elogium was premature remember.

I guess Kes was a pre-teen.
Oh I had forgotten that, thanks!

It's a good example of how human terminology and expectations don't always apply to other species. If the Ocampan formed intimate relationships at the age Kes is on VOY then that is all that matters as to her maturity IMHO.
I agree. The Ocampa seem to be somewhat different than humans in some aspects and can't be judged by human standards.

As for Kes, she was something equivalent to an 18-25 years old in "Caretaker".
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Old December 19 2008, 03:31 PM   #80
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
She wasn't capable of having children until she was 4 or 5, the Elogium was premature remember.

I guess Kes was a pre-teen.
Oh I had forgotten that, thanks!

It's a good example of how human terminology and expectations don't always apply to other species. If the Ocampan formed intimate relationships at the age Kes is on VOY then that is all that matters as to her maturity IMHO.
I agree. The Ocampa seem to be somewhat different than humans in some aspects and can't be judged by human standards.

As for Kes, she was something equivalent to an 18-25 years old in "Caretaker".
If we just established Kes hasn't gone thru puberty yet, how could she be 18-25 in "Caretaker"?
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Old December 19 2008, 04:42 PM   #81
kimc
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
If we just established Kes hasn't gone thru puberty yet, how could she be 18-25 in "Caretaker"?
Humans normally go thru puberty before becoming sexually active. That doesn't mean it's the same for Ocampans.
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Old December 19 2008, 05:39 PM   #82
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????
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Old December 19 2008, 05:50 PM   #83
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

pimp wrote: View Post
Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????
They never showed her father although she did refer to him a few times.
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Old December 19 2008, 05:55 PM   #84
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

kimc wrote: View Post
pimp wrote: View Post
Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????
They never showed her father although she did refer to him a few times.
Sorry i think you may have miss read what i typed i was not going on about her father.

I said that she looked rather FAT in that episode compared to the earlier seasons when she was young and slim.
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Old December 19 2008, 05:58 PM   #85
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

kimc wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
If we just established Kes hasn't gone thru puberty yet, how could she be 18-25 in "Caretaker"?
Humans normally go thru puberty before becoming sexually active. That doesn't mean it's the same for Ocampans.
But we know from Elogium that she wasn't, which was also already covered in this post.

Pimp, yes Lien did gain weight. However, we're supposed to believe Kes the character didn't.
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Old December 19 2008, 10:28 PM   #86
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

The Ocampa obviously go through puberty later in their lives than humans do.

According to "Elogium", the Ocampa were supposed to go through elogium and be able to have a child (or children) in their fourth year and that means that it would happen when they were equivalent to a 35-40 year old human.

Unfortunately, I must once again state that this whole confusing thing comes down to bad and sloppy writing. They messed up that poor species with so much contradictions and unrealistic things, like the whole lifespan and having children things that they actually didn't know what they were doing.
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Old December 19 2008, 11:13 PM   #87
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
The Ocampa obviously go through puberty later in their lives than humans do.

According to "Elogium", the Ocampa were supposed to go through elogium and be able to have a child (or children) in their fourth year and that means that it would happen when they were equivalent to a 35-40 year old human.

Unfortunately, I must once again state that this whole confusing thing comes down to bad and sloppy writing. They messed up that poor species with so much contradictions and unrealistic things, like the whole lifespan and having children things that they actually didn't know what they were doing.
Actually, I think your point of reference is wrong.

By her 4th year, Kes mentally will be about 35-40 but physically she'd be entering puberty.
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Old December 19 2008, 11:15 PM   #88
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
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Old December 19 2008, 11:23 PM   #89
Lynx
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here.

I think that the whole thing of having Kes as a villain is horrible and totally out of character. It would have been as portraying Picard as a drunken alcoholic or Riker as a psychotic mass murder who would "take out" every crewmember who he suspected to threaten his post as Number One.

It would be just totally wrong.
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Old December 19 2008, 11:29 PM   #90
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
In an interview with Braga in Star Trek: Communicator. He said it was his intent to make Kes a reaccuring villian for the show. He felt it was easier to expore her powers by making her a bad guy instead of a good one. It's unsure why he never went thru with the idea.
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