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Old December 17 2008, 09:24 AM   #46
Lynx
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
I had a look around your website Lynx! Yes you are quite a Kes fan. On my third watching of VOY all the way through I warmed to her a bit but that was about it. I did think her backstory in Pathways was very interesting.

I think she was more stubborn then weak or passive.. but she was very quietly spoken so she appeared passive. This is is especially true if you contrast her with the other VOY women. Her manner was extremely gentle, which can be mistaken for passivity.
You're hitting the nail on the head here.

One of the points with Kes that I find fascinating is that she's a contrary to the more typical "female hero" characters.

She's not an "action character", more a contrast and a complement to such characters, most likely Torres Janeway and Seven.

What's interesting is that she still gets things the way she wants by simply moving around the obstacles.

There are some examples of Kes's ways to achieve things in certain episodes. Like "Jetrel" when Neelix is telling her that he was a coward who deserted from the army because he didn't want to fight in that war. Kes asks him what punishment it was for deserting the army and Neelix says "death penalty". Kes then asks him how he could see himself as a coward when he actually risked his life for something he did believe in.

Or when she persuades Tuvok to go after Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions". When poor Kim tried the same , he was almost court-martialed.

I guess that Kes can be seen as "passive" but she's actually the opposite of that. Her ways to achieve her goals are somewhat different than the others.

I must also state that I don't think that she'd let Neelix "walk all over her". She was very independent and didn't hesitate to tell Neelix her meaning when he did behave stupid i so0me way. Finally she broke up with him (even if that event was very badly handled by the writers).

As for her work in sickbay, she did a good job in assisting the "holodoc" and that job must be regarded as very important because of the casualties which Voyager was affected by from time to time.

And yes, her background story in "Pathways" was very interesting.
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Old December 17 2008, 02:14 PM   #47
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

I've been trying to think of an example where Neelix walked all over her but I can't come up with one. She was pretty much in charge of where the relationship went on on what terms from what I recall.. Neelix was the one more likely to give in.
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Old December 17 2008, 02:30 PM   #48
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
I've been trying to think of an example where Neelix walked all over her but I can't come up with one. She was pretty much in charge of where the relationship went on on what terms from what I recall.. Neelix was the one more likely to give in.
Sounds like you are making Neelix look like a stalker.
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Old December 17 2008, 02:31 PM   #49
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Ezri II wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I've been trying to think of an example where Neelix walked all over her but I can't come up with one. She was pretty much in charge of where the relationship went on on what terms from what I recall.. Neelix was the one more likely to give in.
Sounds like you are making Neelix look like a stalker.
I can not imagine how you get that out of what I said.
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Old December 17 2008, 02:39 PM   #50
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I've been trying to think of an example where Neelix walked all over her but I can't come up with one. She was pretty much in charge of where the relationship went on on what terms from what I recall.. Neelix was the one more likely to give in.
Sounds like you are making Neelix look like a stalker.
I can not imagine how you get that out of what I said.
What if you had a girlfriend that was willing to do whatever you wanted with a relationship? What if your girlfriend was willing to back down just because she felt you would break up with her.

Then what if your girlfriend acted like Neelix. Always talking about you to your friends and anyone in ear shoot of talking about you. Then, what if your girlfriend cannot even think of not being with you like Neelix was with Kes.

Just be glad Neelix was a male and Kes was a female, if there genders were different Neelix would come after Kes with a kitchen knife after they broke up.

Just me, if I was with someone that cannot even think what life would be like without me being their girlfriend I would think of the person as a Stalker when we do break up.
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Old December 18 2008, 12:01 AM   #51
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

So it's you who is "making Neelix look like a stalker".
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Old December 18 2008, 12:17 AM   #52
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
So it's you who is "making Neelix look like a stalker".
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Old December 18 2008, 12:30 AM   #53
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Ezri II wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post

Sounds like you are making Neelix look like a stalker.
I can not imagine how you get that out of what I said.
What if you had a girlfriend that was willing to do whatever you wanted with a relationship? What if your girlfriend was willing to back down just because she felt you would break up with her.

Then what if your girlfriend acted like Neelix. Always talking about you to your friends and anyone in ear shoot of talking about you. Then, what if your girlfriend cannot even think of not being with you like Neelix was with Kes.

Just be glad Neelix was a male and Kes was a female, if there genders were different Neelix would come after Kes with a kitchen knife after they broke up.

Just me, if I was with someone that cannot even think what life would be like without me being their girlfriend I would think of the person as a Stalker when we do break up.
I think you're missing the fact that Neelix was alone & mostly homeless a great majority of his life. He backed down to Kes because she someone that needed him. Neelix freaks at the idea of being alone. She fell in love with him because he was like a protector and felt sorry for him. They had a very dysfunctional bond.
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Old December 18 2008, 12:41 AM   #54
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
I think you're missing the fact that Neelix was alone & mostly homeless a great majority of his life. He backed down to Kes because she someone that needed him. Neelix freaks at the idea of being alone. She fell in love with him because he was like a protector and felt sorry for him. They had a very dysfunctional bond.
If Neelix was dysfunctional and Kes was dysfunctional, you are going to have a dysfunctional couple. If Neelix was alone and homeless the majority of his life and Kes gave him the feeling of being wanted and a feeling of a home life. Sure, I can understand Neelix would not want to go back to his life before Kes. That only traps Kes, as she really has a problem if she wants to move on with her life without Neelix.
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Old December 18 2008, 12:48 AM   #55
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Yes I realize that some people love Kes. However I'm not going to take back my honest response to her demise(s). Just as I dislike Kes I accept that others despise Neelix etc.. such is fandom.

Look at it this way--if you love a character you are likely to look for their redemption or a way out of something unsavoury that happens to them. See alt.Trip.Tucker. Heck go back in time nearly 15 years and see Captain Kirk. The anger and alternatives offered to explain his death.. well many have forgotten it now but it was a big deal for some. And yet I know other fans who were like "Kirk was a jerk! He's dead, YAY!"
I agree with your point about us who looks for redemption for certain characters. I remember the anger about what happened to Captain Kirk and I strongly support those who were p***ed off with what happened to the character in "Generations". It was rude and unnecessary to bring back the character just to kill him off like they did. If they wanted Kirk in a TNG movie, they could have used some time-travel story instead, maybe some combination between "Generations" and "First Contact".

However, the fans of Kirk can actually dismiss "Generations" if they want because Kirk remains the icon of Star trek (together with Spock). There are three seasons with episodes and six movies available with Kirk as the main character. There are a lot of TOS books available and there will probably be more books written about Captain Kirk with adventures which takes place in the TOS timeline.

As I see it, Kes was treated ten times worse than Kirk. She was dumped after three seasons and then brought back only to be destroyed. Kirk did after all leave as a hero while Kes left as a maniac and pathetic wreck. The fact that there was a letter campaign going to have Kes re-instated as a main character again and that "Fury" was the response from those in charge is further fuel to the flame. Kirk will still be remember as a hero while Kes will be remember as the one who became a whacko and there will be no books written with Kes as the main character.

Many of us can't accept that, therefore we are looking for solutions. Not to mention that the pathetic wreck we saw in "Fury" was the total opposite to what Kes was and ever stood for in Voyager.

Or to make it short: We simply don't accept the events in "Fury".
Many like who?

I see those that don't understand the events that lead up to it but none that can't accept it. Kes was never going to be brought back as a main character no matter who wrote in because there was no budget to pay another actress. Besides, most of the people only watching the show for Kes stopped watching when she left. Why remain loyal to a small fan group that wasn't loyal to the show to begin with? TPTB were thinking long term and about an audience that would stick with the show to bring in ratings and a bigger budget, not to viewers that were going to leave over one character out of a cast of 9. That isn't fair to the other cast members like Mulgrew, Picado, Russ & Dawson too name a few that were acting their asses off to keep the show running.
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Last edited by exodus; December 18 2008 at 08:04 AM.
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Old December 18 2008, 09:11 AM   #56
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Yes I realize that some people love Kes. However I'm not going to take back my honest response to her demise(s). Just as I dislike Kes I accept that others despise Neelix etc.. such is fandom.

Look at it this way--if you love a character you are likely to look for their redemption or a way out of something unsavoury that happens to them. See alt.Trip.Tucker. Heck go back in time nearly 15 years and see Captain Kirk. The anger and alternatives offered to explain his death.. well many have forgotten it now but it was a big deal for some. And yet I know other fans who were like "Kirk was a jerk! He's dead, YAY!"
I agree with your point about us who looks for redemption for certain characters. I remember the anger about what happened to Captain Kirk and I strongly support those who were p***ed off with what happened to the character in "Generations". It was rude and unnecessary to bring back the character just to kill him off like they did. If they wanted Kirk in a TNG movie, they could have used some time-travel story instead, maybe some combination between "Generations" and "First Contact".

However, the fans of Kirk can actually dismiss "Generations" if they want because Kirk remains the icon of Star trek (together with Spock). There are three seasons with episodes and six movies available with Kirk as the main character. There are a lot of TOS books available and there will probably be more books written about Captain Kirk with adventures which takes place in the TOS timeline.

As I see it, Kes was treated ten times worse than Kirk. She was dumped after three seasons and then brought back only to be destroyed. Kirk did after all leave as a hero while Kes left as a maniac and pathetic wreck. The fact that there was a letter campaign going to have Kes re-instated as a main character again and that "Fury" was the response from those in charge is further fuel to the flame. Kirk will still be remember as a hero while Kes will be remember as the one who became a whacko and there will be no books written with Kes as the main character.

Many of us can't accept that, therefore we are looking for solutions. Not to mention that the pathetic wreck we saw in "Fury" was the total opposite to what Kes was and ever stood for in Voyager.

Or to make it short: We simply don't accept the events in "Fury".
Many like who?

I see those that don't understand the events that lead up to it but none that can't accept it. Kes was never going to be brought back as a main character no matter who wrote in because there was no budget to pay another actress. Besides, most of the people only watching the show for Kes stopped watching when she left. Why remain loyal to a small fan group that wasn't loyal to the show to begin with? TPTB were thinking long term and about an audience that would stick with the show to bring in ratings and a bigger budget, not to viewers that were going to leave over one character out of a cast of 9. That isn't fair to the other cast members like Mulgrew, Picado, Russ & Dawson too name a few that were acting their asses off to keep the show running.
In that case, they should simply have left it as it was instead of insulting those dissapointed fans by ruin and destroy their favorite character in a very sadistic way.

They could have won back some fans by bringing Kes back in a decent way, instead they lost those fans for good.
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Old December 18 2008, 09:17 AM   #57
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Ezri II wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
I think you're missing the fact that Neelix was alone & mostly homeless a great majority of his life. He backed down to Kes because she someone that needed him. Neelix freaks at the idea of being alone. She fell in love with him because he was like a protector and felt sorry for him. They had a very dysfunctional bond.
If Neelix was dysfunctional and Kes was dysfunctional, you are going to have a dysfunctional couple. If Neelix was alone and homeless the majority of his life and Kes gave him the feeling of being wanted and a feeling of a home life. Sure, I can understand Neelix would not want to go back to his life before Kes. That only traps Kes, as she really has a problem if she wants to move on with her life without Neelix.
"Dysfunctional" is a somewhat rude word to describe their relationship.

Besides that, none of them had any problems to continue with their lives after the break-up. Neelix had his cooking, his TV show (A Briefing With Neelix) and his role as Morale Officer. Kes had her job in sickbay plus her gardening. Both of them also had their social life with the other crew members.

In fact, their relationship was obviously starting to fade already in season 2 when both of them had started to develope in opposite directions.
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Old December 18 2008, 02:32 PM   #58
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

I didn't realize that Neelix and Kes's relationship could be seen as unseemly until sometime after the whole series was done, and I could see that Kes was really a child when Neelix met her.

I guess I could cut him some slack for not realizing that, too. Neelix was a decent guy, and Ocampa life span is rather extraordinary in the general scheme of cultures.
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Old December 18 2008, 03:10 PM   #59
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

I agree with your point about us who looks for redemption for certain characters. I remember the anger about what happened to Captain Kirk and I strongly support those who were p***ed off with what happened to the character in "Generations". It was rude and unnecessary to bring back the character just to kill him off like they did. If they wanted Kirk in a TNG movie, they could have used some time-travel story instead, maybe some combination between "Generations" and "First Contact".

However, the fans of Kirk can actually dismiss "Generations" if they want because Kirk remains the icon of Star trek (together with Spock). There are three seasons with episodes and six movies available with Kirk as the main character. There are a lot of TOS books available and there will probably be more books written about Captain Kirk with adventures which takes place in the TOS timeline.

As I see it, Kes was treated ten times worse than Kirk. She was dumped after three seasons and then brought back only to be destroyed. Kirk did after all leave as a hero while Kes left as a maniac and pathetic wreck. The fact that there was a letter campaign going to have Kes re-instated as a main character again and that "Fury" was the response from those in charge is further fuel to the flame. Kirk will still be remember as a hero while Kes will be remember as the one who became a whacko and there will be no books written with Kes as the main character.

Many of us can't accept that, therefore we are looking for solutions. Not to mention that the pathetic wreck we saw in "Fury" was the total opposite to what Kes was and ever stood for in Voyager.

Or to make it short: We simply don't accept the events in "Fury".
Many like who?

I see those that don't understand the events that lead up to it but none that can't accept it. Kes was never going to be brought back as a main character no matter who wrote in because there was no budget to pay another actress. Besides, most of the people only watching the show for Kes stopped watching when she left. Why remain loyal to a small fan group that wasn't loyal to the show to begin with? TPTB were thinking long term and about an audience that would stick with the show to bring in ratings and a bigger budget, not to viewers that were going to leave over one character out of a cast of 9. That isn't fair to the other cast members like Mulgrew, Picado, Russ & Dawson too name a few that were acting their asses off to keep the show running.
In that case, they should simply have left it as it was instead of insulting those dissapointed fans by ruin and destroy their favorite character in a very sadistic way.

They could have won back some fans by bringing Kes back in a decent way, instead they lost those fans for good.
If they are ready lost those fans when the character left the show, what difference does it make? She wasn't coming back to the show as a main cast member & Kes fans were only going to tune into the ep. where she returned. If Kes fans weren't loyal to the show for the 2 and a half years she was gone, winning you back just near the last season isn't going to help, the show was nearly done. They were looking 7 years to make Star Trek:Voyager fans, not Star Trek: Kes ones. There were 9 other members of the cast(including Seven) that deserved just as much support and loyality.
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Old December 18 2008, 05:11 PM   #60
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Jeri wrote: View Post
I didn't realize that Neelix and Kes's relationship could be seen as unseemly until sometime after the whole series was done, and I could see that Kes was really a child when Neelix met her.
Kes was as young adult by Ocampan standards. Yes there was a wide range in age/experience between her and Neelix which is why the relationship didn't last but Kes was not a child.
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