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Old December 12 2008, 04:28 PM   #61
QuasarVM
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Sarcasm? What sarcasm?
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Old December 12 2008, 04:52 PM   #62
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Yes, you're entitled to think whatever you want, and I wouldn't try to stop you. However, you're railing against Brent Spiner for defending Rick Berman, questioning why he would even feel the need to defend Berman, even putting the word "star" in quotations, and likening Star Trek under Berman's watch to "abuse". Once more, you can say whatever you like, but your opinion is definitely of the hyperbolic and extreme.
Exactly so.

A lot of fannish anger at the people behind the scenes on these shows is infantile and maladjusted - there was a guy who used to be a member here who could not let the name of a particular one of the modern Trek artists/designers be mentioned here without posting something vituperative in response - and if the guy's name didn't come up, this head case would be sure to bring it up.
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Old December 12 2008, 05:34 PM   #63
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

I can't believe I'm the only one offended by Spiner's comments.

To me, this has nothing to do with Berman.

Spiner is basically telling YOU (yes all of us, all of his and star trek's fans) that you have no right to be critical or Berman or Star Trek because YOU haven't produced a TV show before. It's ridiculous.


How would you feel if someone said "You can't criticize America's Top Model! You've never even worked in TV before!".


The comments Spiner made were stupid. And it's kicking some mud at Star Trek fans and how valuable our opinions are.


I just don't see how some of you can stick up for his comments when they basically slam Star Trek fans opinions as worthless.
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Old December 12 2008, 05:48 PM   #64
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
I just don't see how some of you can stick up for his comments when they basically slam Star Trek fans opinions as worthless.
Because your interpretation of those comments is so far off the mark as to be ludicrous beyond all common sense.

But you are absolutely entitled to that interpretation. Odd though it may be.

Honestly, have you actually read anything anyone else has said here? Your comments to date suggest not.
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Old December 12 2008, 05:51 PM   #65
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Berman took TNG and made a good show great. While I don't know too much about the behind-the-scenes stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed DS9 for the most part. It was fantastic at telling inticate stories and they involved numerous clearly defined characters who had complicated relationships with others. VOY had its moments but felt watered down frequently. I enjoyed certain characters (Janeway, Paris, Torrez, and The Dr.) but felt nothing positive for others (Kes, Neelix, Tuvok, or Chakotay). There were some great stories and some clinkers, too. ENT started strong, wandered a bit and came back, but too late. I never warmed up to Archer, T'Pol, or Travis. OTOH, Trip, Phlox, Malcolm, and Hoshi were great. In a nutshell, Berman did some wonderful work, but as time went on, he was inconsistent with some great ideas inter-twined with weak ones.
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Old December 12 2008, 05:58 PM   #66
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
Alex1939 wrote: View Post
I just don't see how some of you can stick up for his comments when they basically slam Star Trek fans opinions as worthless.
Because your interpretation of those comments is so far off the mark as to be ludicrous beyond all common sense.

But you are absolutely entitled to that interpretation. Odd though it may be.

Honestly, have you actually read anything anyone else has said here? Your comments to date suggest not.
People look real hard, sometimes, for something to take offense at.
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Old December 12 2008, 06:00 PM   #67
exodus
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

T'Cal wrote: View Post
Berman took TNG and made a good show great. While I don't know too much about the behind-the-scenes stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed DS9 for the most part. It was fantastic at telling inticate stories and they involved numerous clearly defined characters who had complicated relationships with others. VOY had its moments but felt watered down frequently. I enjoyed certain characters (Janeway, Paris, Torrez, and The Dr.) but felt nothing positive for others (Kes, Neelix, Tuvok, or Chakotay). There were some great stories and some clinkers, too. ENT started strong, wandered a bit and came back, but too late. I never warmed up to Archer, T'Pol, or Travis. OTOH, Trip, Phlox, Malcolm, and Hoshi were great. In a nutshell, Berman did some wonderful work, but as time went on, he was inconsistent with some great ideas inter-twined with weak ones.
In all fairness, no writer can write for 4 spin-off series that are back to back to back and not have some of them fall off. Plenty of other spin off shows have the same issues, Law & Order or CSI for example.

However as someone else said, most shows today don't even last beyond 1 or 2 seasons, so it's still a great acomplishment to have at least 3 spin-offs that lasted 7.
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Old December 12 2008, 07:09 PM   #68
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

There are loony extremists in every group.

Me? I've just never been one to wear the rose-colored glasses. I know what I like...and I just speak to that and what I think could've been better.

I loved Tin Man. Not because Dennis is here but because it's just a great episode. Others, however, may not like it...big deal.

I think it's fair to critique...I don't think one has to LOVE every aspect of every part of Trek or even like Rick Berman...or whoever.

I draw the line at the "out there" threats and that sort of thing because thats...crazy.

Keep it in perspective...keep it real...and keep those critiques comin'!

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Old December 12 2008, 08:00 PM   #69
exodus
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
I can't believe I'm the only one offended by Spiner's comments.

To me, this has nothing to do with Berman.

Spiner is basically telling YOU (yes all of us, all of his and star trek's fans) that you have no right to be critical or Berman or Star Trek because YOU haven't produced a TV show before. It's ridiculous.


How would you feel if someone said "You can't criticize America's Top Model! You've never even worked in TV before!".


The comments Spiner made were stupid. And it's kicking some mud at Star Trek fans and how valuable our opinions are.


I just don't see how some of you can stick up for his comments when they basically slam Star Trek fans opinions as worthless.
I don't see how people can take statement to the ultimate extreme like this. Talk about your dilusions of grandeur.
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Old December 12 2008, 10:33 PM   #70
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

exodus wrote: View Post
I don't see how people can take statement to the ultimate extreme like this. Talk about your dilusions of grandeur.
Dude, whatever. I don't know what the hell you are talking about or how it has to do with "dilusions of grandeur."



Point is, as an American anyway, we have the right to free speech and to express ourselves. If people bash Berman, so be it. For someone to say, you have no ground to "bash" someone because you haven't worked in the profession is bullshit.


Sorry no one else see's that.
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Old December 12 2008, 10:49 PM   #71
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
I don't see how people can take statement to the ultimate extreme like this. Talk about your dilusions of grandeur.
Dude, whatever. I don't know what the hell you are talking about or how it has to do with "dilusions of grandeur."



Point is, as an American anyway, we have the right to free speech and to express ourselves. If people bash Berman, so be it. For someone to say, you have no ground to "bash" someone because you haven't worked in the profession is bullshit.


Sorry no one else see's that.
I agree that fans should be able to criticize Berman, but they should do so with an understanding that he works hard for the fans.
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Old December 12 2008, 11:04 PM   #72
exodus
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
I don't see how people can take statement to the ultimate extreme like this. Talk about your dilusions of grandeur.
Dude, whatever. I don't know what the hell you are talking about or how it has to do with "dilusions of grandeur."



Point is, as an American anyway, we have the right to free speech and to express ourselves. If people bash Berman, so be it. For someone to say, you have no ground to "bash" someone because you haven't worked in the profession is bullshit.


Sorry no one else see's that.
Nobody else sees that because they probably read more than just the first paragraph, if you read the acticle then you'd know what your saying is what Spiner is impling.
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Old December 12 2008, 11:05 PM   #73
Basil
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
I did read the post. I read the whole thread before responding.
You wondered why Spiner needed to address the issue. I brought up the point that you're not even creatively involved in the show and you felt the need to address it. Since Spiner's in the thick of it, then his reasoning is at least as qualified as yours.
Nope, you don't get it. I was responding to this assertion by Polaris:

No. It really, really doesn't.

Additionally, all of this talk about the responses of the producers, et al to "criticism" is really pretty funny - no one over the age of 23 loses sleep because fanboys on the Internet don't like what they do.
My point is that if "no one over the age of 23 loses sleep because fanboys on the Internet don't like what they do," then why would Spiner -- who is obviously over 23 and not a fanboy -- need to respond? My point was never that Spiner couldn't respond or had a greater or lesser right to a response than anyone else but simply that his posting in the first place counterpoints Polaris' assertion.

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Yes, you're entitled to think whatever you want, and I wouldn't try to stop you. However, you're railing against Brent Spiner for defending Rick Berman, questioning why he would even feel the need to defend Berman, even putting the word "star" in quotations, and likening Star Trek under Berman's watch to "abuse". Once more, you can say whatever you like, but your opinion is definitely of the hyperbolic and extreme.

J.
I'm never "railed" against Spiner but simply said his opinion doesn't impress me and that I don't consider him a "star," which I think is accurate because he certainly doesn't have the celebrity, influence, or box office success of Leonardo DiCaprio, George Clooney, Denzel Washington, etc. At best, he's a supporting character actor who had a major role on Star Trek. If there's any hyperbole, it seems to be in the way you characterized what I said.
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Old December 13 2008, 12:08 AM   #74
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Basil wrote: View Post
Santa Claus wrote: View Post
I did read the post. I read the whole thread before responding.
You wondered why Spiner needed to address the issue. I brought up the point that you're not even creatively involved in the show and you felt the need to address it. Since Spiner's in the thick of it, then his reasoning is at least as qualified as yours.
Nope, you don't get it. I was responding to this assertion by Polaris:

No. It really, really doesn't.

Additionally, all of this talk about the responses of the producers, et al to "criticism" is really pretty funny - no one over the age of 23 loses sleep because fanboys on the Internet don't like what they do.
My point is that if "no one over the age of 23 loses sleep because fanboys on the Internet don't like what they do," then why would Spiner -- who is obviously over 23 and not a fanboy -- need to respond? My point was never that Spiner couldn't respond or had a greater or lesser right to a response than anyone else but simply that his posting in the first place counterpoints Polaris' assertion.

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Yes, you're entitled to think whatever you want, and I wouldn't try to stop you. However, you're railing against Brent Spiner for defending Rick Berman, questioning why he would even feel the need to defend Berman, even putting the word "star" in quotations, and likening Star Trek under Berman's watch to "abuse". Once more, you can say whatever you like, but your opinion is definitely of the hyperbolic and extreme.

J.
I'm never "railed" against Spiner but simply said his opinion doesn't impress me and that I don't consider him a "star," which I think is accurate because he certainly doesn't have the celebrity, influence, or box office success of Leonardo DiCaprio, George Clooney, Denzel Washington, etc. At best, he's a supporting character actor who had a major role on Star Trek. If there's any hyperbole, it seems to be in the way you characterized what I said.
Then with all due respect, I don't think you're seeing it from a fresh perspective. It really does have all the markings of a more extreme viewpoint.

J.
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Old December 13 2008, 03:37 AM   #75
Basil
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions.
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