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Old December 12 2008, 03:05 AM   #46
Basil
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

If that's so, then why do "stars" like Spiner feel the need to even address it? And why even parse out whether comments are criticism or abuse?

And criticism/abuse really is in the eye of the beholder -- the reason some people bristle at the very same comments others slough off. In the end, though, as long as Berman isn't producing Trek, I'm happy. For me, a lot of his Trek was abuse.
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Old December 12 2008, 04:40 AM   #47
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Thank you, USS Intrepid.
There was a time so many years ago that I strongly disliked Rick Berman. I didn't want him to touch Star Trek ever again, and considered him a pariah. All it took for me to come around was a real, thoughtful reflection of the work he actually oversaw. For all his faults, he still did some terrific work.

Basil wrote: View Post
If that's so, then why do "stars" like Spiner feel the need to even address it? And why even parse out whether comments are criticism or abuse?
Why did you respond to the topic? You felt it was necessary to address, and you're not even directly involved in the show. So if you can address it, then he has ample reason to do the same.

And criticism/abuse really is in the eye of the beholder -- the reason some people bristle at the very same comments others slough off. In the end, though, as long as Berman isn't producing Trek, I'm happy. For me, a lot of his Trek was abuse.
However, there's a difference between "I dislike the product Rick Berman has produced" and "I hope he's kicked off the lot and has to beg on street corners for scraps of food" (a real comment from some time back by a poster I can't remember).

As for abuse, well, unless you're a writer of the show who was kicked in the face by Rick Berman, or maybe a Producer who was mauled in a back alley by Rick Berman, then you really have no grounds for considering Berman's Star Trek work to be "abuse". Let's save that word for important things, not trivialities.

J.
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Old December 12 2008, 04:45 AM   #48
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

I totally agree, Brent. Lisa de Moraes, the TV columnist in the Washington Post, wrote today that, "The bad news about the TV industry is that it assumes a failure is an indictment of the idea, when it's usually just an indictment of the show."
When all of these folks wrote that Star Trek was tired and worn out, I think that the truth of the matter was that the horrible ratings on "Enterprise" really had to do with some often poor writing and poor character development on that program. For those "Enterprise" fans out there, compare your favorite episodes of that series with the character development and writing on TOS or TNG or DS9.
Star Trek, whether on the big screen or the small screen, just needs folks like Berman and Ronald D. Moore to lend their creative, magic touch to the process.
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Old December 12 2008, 04:59 AM   #49
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Spiner is full of $hit! Don't demonize Berman?
Berman is Satan and Braga is the Anti-Christ.
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Old December 12 2008, 05:25 AM   #50
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Pioneer wrote: View Post
Spiner is full of $hit! Don't demonize Berman?
Berman is Satan and Braga is the Anti-Christ.
I'm hoping you said that to be ironic.

I remember reading a message board where someone said the man should die. That's abhorrent.

None of us knows the man personally. Same goes for Brannon.

Far too often the criticism has come from people with no first hand experience with the details of how the show is written and produced and what demands are made upon the producers by the studio who has the final say and often dictates changes to the producers. And the criticism has come with personal attacks and really mean-spirited and nasty.

Criticism is one thing. Wishing harm on them is another.
 
Old December 12 2008, 05:47 AM   #51
davidant32
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Berman started out great but his biggest problem was his inability to adapt, which is a bit ironic considering how many Borg episodes he participated in.

Then again, the Borg were mindless zombies that just did same 'ol same 'ol
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Old December 12 2008, 06:07 AM   #52
Basil
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Thank you, USS Intrepid.
There was a time so many years ago that I strongly disliked Rick Berman. I didn't want him to touch Star Trek ever again, and considered him a pariah. All it took for me to come around was a real, thoughtful reflection of the work he actually oversaw. For all his faults, he still did some terrific work.

Basil wrote: View Post
If that's so, then why do "stars" like Spiner feel the need to even address it? And why even parse out whether comments are criticism or abuse?
Why did you respond to the topic? You felt it was necessary to address, and you're not even directly involved in the show. So if you can address it, then he has ample reason to do the same.

And criticism/abuse really is in the eye of the beholder -- the reason some people bristle at the very same comments others slough off. In the end, though, as long as Berman isn't producing Trek, I'm happy. For me, a lot of his Trek was abuse.
However, there's a difference between "I dislike the product Rick Berman has produced" and "I hope he's kicked off the lot and has to beg on street corners for scraps of food" (a real comment from some time back by a poster I can't remember).

As for abuse, well, unless you're a writer of the show who was kicked in the face by Rick Berman, or maybe a Producer who was mauled in a back alley by Rick Berman, then you really have no grounds for considering Berman's Star Trek work to be "abuse". Let's save that word for important things, not trivialities.

J.
Read the post I was responding to to get the correct point. I've no problem with Spiner responding -- though I don't care much about what he thinks.

As to your second point, I'm entitled to think whatever I want, don't need your approval, nor need to fit any of the parameters you suggest. If I think Berman Trek is an abuse, I certainly can, and moreso, I exercised the correct judgment, along with millions of others, and turned it off.
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Old December 12 2008, 06:23 AM   #53
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Basil wrote: View Post
Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Thank you, USS Intrepid.
There was a time so many years ago that I strongly disliked Rick Berman. I didn't want him to touch Star Trek ever again, and considered him a pariah. All it took for me to come around was a real, thoughtful reflection of the work he actually oversaw. For all his faults, he still did some terrific work.

Basil wrote: View Post
If that's so, then why do "stars" like Spiner feel the need to even address it? And why even parse out whether comments are criticism or abuse?
Why did you respond to the topic? You felt it was necessary to address, and you're not even directly involved in the show. So if you can address it, then he has ample reason to do the same.

And criticism/abuse really is in the eye of the beholder -- the reason some people bristle at the very same comments others slough off. In the end, though, as long as Berman isn't producing Trek, I'm happy. For me, a lot of his Trek was abuse.
However, there's a difference between "I dislike the product Rick Berman has produced" and "I hope he's kicked off the lot and has to beg on street corners for scraps of food" (a real comment from some time back by a poster I can't remember).

As for abuse, well, unless you're a writer of the show who was kicked in the face by Rick Berman, or maybe a Producer who was mauled in a back alley by Rick Berman, then you really have no grounds for considering Berman's Star Trek work to be "abuse". Let's save that word for important things, not trivialities.

J.
Read the post I was responding to to get the correct point. I've no problem with Spiner responding -- though I don't care much about what he thinks.

As to your second point, I'm entitled to think whatever I want, don't need your approval, nor need to fit any of the parameters you suggest. If I think Berman Trek is an abuse, I certainly can, and moreso, I exercised the correct judgment, along with millions of others, and turned it off.
I did read the post. I read the whole thread before responding.
You wondered why Spiner needed to address the issue. I brought up the point that you're not even creatively involved in the show and you felt the need to address it. Since Spiner's in the thick of it, then his reasoning is at least as qualified as yours.

Yes, you're entitled to think whatever you want, and I wouldn't try to stop you. However, you're railing against Brent Spiner for defending Rick Berman, questioning why he would even feel the need to defend Berman, even putting the word "star" in quotations, and likening Star Trek under Berman's watch to "abuse". Once more, you can say whatever you like, but your opinion is definitely of the hyperbolic and extreme.

J.
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Old December 12 2008, 06:46 AM   #54
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Brent Spiner is correct. While Rick Berman is responsible for some real duds, he's also helmed Star Trek during some of it's most brilliant moments. He is mediocre in his story telling, but his management skills and business acumen are superb. I wish he'd have taken more of a backseat creatively, and focused more on his well honed talents. The anger and bile against him is not justified. Irritation and frustration? Certainly, but the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
I agree. What Spiner points out about Berman's strengths is perfectly legitimate. It sounds to me that Berman got out of his league when he tried to be too hands-on in his management.

My own manager explained to me that his belief is that a boss's job is to clear obstacles for his/her direct reports so that they can more easily do their job. It is NOT the manager's job to do the direct reports' jobs for them. THAT is Berman's mistake.

And definitely, it's a mistake--I did not like Voyager, and Enterprise definitely had trouble (though there was potential).

But I don't see the need to take it out on Berman personally or to demonize the man.
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Old December 12 2008, 08:31 AM   #55
Herbert
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Whether fans unfairly vilify Rick Berman or not, or whether he was hand-picked by Gene Roddenberry to run the franchise, the fact remains that after 16 years of running the Star Trek franchise Rick Berman needed to go. Perhaps our rants on the Internet and the poor ratings of Star Trek: Enterprise and Star Trek: Nemesis convinced Paramount that new blood was needed. Whether he cares about Star Trek or producing a television series and feature films is a difficult job is irrelevant.

And what about the contributions to Star Trek during this period of Bob Justman, Michael Piller, Jerry Taylor, Ira Steven Behr, and René Echevarria as producers and the writing staff that was assembled for Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine particularly Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ronald D. Moore? Should Berman take sole credit for that?

When Rick Berman and Brannon Braga decided to run the franchise themselves the whole thing started to unravel. Perhaps after 16 years they had used up all their good ideas. Star Trek: Enterprise started to become good when Manny Coto was brought in close to the end in season four.

I really wish that Berman was ousted by someone in the family like Ira Steven Behr. Behr did an outstanding job with the later seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Any way, its moot now. Berman and Braga are gone.

Last edited by Herbert; December 12 2008 at 09:10 AM.
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Old December 12 2008, 12:39 PM   #56
USS Intrepid
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Basil wrote: View Post
If that's so, then why do "stars" like Spiner feel the need to even address it? And why even parse out whether comments are criticism or abuse?
Maybe because Spiner thinks threats of personal abuse, death and some of the clearly deranged comments thrown at Berman are outside the bounds of fair criticism.

Basil wrote: View Post
And criticism/abuse really is in the eye of the beholder -- the reason some people bristle at the very same comments others slough off.
That's true, up to a point. Unfortunately some people passed that point a long time ago. Which, for a fandom that likes to make a big deal about the whole concept of IDIC, is actually pretty ironic.
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Old December 12 2008, 03:09 PM   #57
GeneHunt
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Id love to see Spiner doing a Chris Crocker style "Leave Berman Alone".

He could say things like "He created 18 years of trek for you bastards!! and all you care about is canon inconsistancies! LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!!"
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Old December 12 2008, 03:19 PM   #58
QuasarVM
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Brent Spiner is correct. While Rick Berman is responsible for some real duds, he's also helmed Star Trek during some of it's most brilliant moments. He is mediocre in his story telling, but his management skills and business acumen are superb. I wish he'd have taken more of a backseat creatively, and focused more on his well honed talents. The anger and bile against him is not justified. Irritation and frustration? Certainly, but the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
That's a pretty accurate, IMO, summation of the facts.
Yeah, brilliant moments like instructing the composers to write sonic wallpaper (after firing the excellent composer, Ron Jones!) rather than memorable episodic music...yeah...
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Old December 12 2008, 03:20 PM   #59
QuasarVM
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Maybe because Spiner thinks threats of personal abuse, death and some of the clearly deranged comments thrown at Berman are outside the bounds of fair criticism.
I agree with that. Just because the man made some bonehead creative decisions that doesn't mean he deserves that kind of treatment.

And he did do some great things -- but man, when he screwed up, he screwed up bigtime.

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Old December 12 2008, 04:03 PM   #60
USS Intrepid
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Brent Spiner is correct. While Rick Berman is responsible for some real duds, he's also helmed Star Trek during some of it's most brilliant moments. He is mediocre in his story telling, but his management skills and business acumen are superb. I wish he'd have taken more of a backseat creatively, and focused more on his well honed talents. The anger and bile against him is not justified. Irritation and frustration? Certainly, but the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
That's a pretty accurate, IMO, summation of the facts.
Yeah, brilliant moments like instructing the composers to write sonic wallpaper (after firing the excellent composer, Ron Jones!) rather than memorable episodic music...yeah...
Y'know, sometimes it's a good idea to actually read the entire comment before letting loose with the sarcasm.
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