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Old December 11 2008, 10:08 PM   #31
USS Intrepid
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

AJBryant wrote: View Post
It's been pointed out in other areas that I don't need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad. I don't need to be a tailor to know a jacket doesn't fit.
Which, as pointed out above, isn't the point at all. Criticism is fine, pointless anger and hate and wringing of the hands is, well, pointless.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled, Berman Hate Fest (TM).

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Of course, without big helpings of the latter the Internet would consist mainly of amazon.com and a bunch of MILF pr0n sites...and no one would know who Robert Beltran is.
I could live with that. Well, except for the Beltran bit, I find him quite amusing.
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Old December 11 2008, 10:12 PM   #32
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

AJBryant wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I disagree. Spiner's simply talking sense. How many people here know exactly what it takes to keep a show on the air and on budget for that many years?

I'm willing to bet you don't. And that's the point. Spiner's really just saying don't judge until you've walked a mile or two in Berman's shoes. Seems pretty sensible to me.
It's been pointed out in other areas that I don't need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad. I don't need to be a tailor to know a jacket doesn't fit.
But someone that studies culinary arts would know that establishment serves bad food without ever going in. Having knowledge of a taylor would allow you to know a good quality jacket over a cheap one.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:13 PM   #33
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

exodus wrote: View Post
It's been pointed out in other areas that I don't need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad.
When I was nine, most vegetables tasted bad. This proved nothing about vegetables, and otherwise demonstrated only that I had the tastes of a particularly picky nine year old boy.

Everyone has the right to express an opinion, but all opinions are not therefore equally useful, informed, or interesting. Since taste is such an individual thing, those other qualities are worth considering.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:14 PM   #34
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Brent Spiner is correct. While Rick Berman is responsible for some real duds, he's also helmed Star Trek during some of it's most brilliant moments. He is mediocre in his story telling, but his management skills and business acumen are superb. I wish he'd have taken more of a backseat creatively, and focused more on his well honed talents. The anger and bile against him is not justified. Irritation and frustration? Certainly, but the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:15 PM   #35
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
...the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:27 PM   #36
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

exodus wrote: View Post
Sorry but you're incorrect, not wanting Nog to loose a limb was part of keeping to Gene's ideas. It was Roddenberry that was dead set against Picard loosing any limbs when he was asimilated as a Borg. Picard was supposed to loose his arm and Gene wouldn't have it.

Spiner is correct, the fans have no idea what it is to be in Berman's position and the scarifices he made to keep Trek running this long as well as having no clue to how Gene wanted Trek to be. Roddenberry would have been very proud of Voyager.
I agree. He was behind the majority of 25 collective years of Trek. It's just an achievement that could not happen now. Shows are barely able to last a SEASON let alone 7 for a show's run. And it's precisely because he knew how to draw lines sometimes that it kept the networks happy and the show running.

I think there's a lot of rabid hatred of him, from fans who are prepared to say the good things in Trek have nothing to do with him, and the bad things have everything to do with him.

I think it's everyone's right to not like the direction Trek went in, and to even feel he's responsible to some degree. But it doesn't make acceptable the pure vitriolic hatred. It is after all just TV.

I personally feel his biggest failure was just not keeping up with the times... TV changed a lot, but Trek didn't. But then network TV changed a lot too, as did the public's appetite for Trek. Things change.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:27 PM   #37
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

exodus wrote: View Post
AJBryant wrote: View Post
USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I disagree. Spiner's simply talking sense. How many people here know exactly what it takes to keep a show on the air and on budget for that many years?

I'm willing to bet you don't. And that's the point. Spiner's really just saying don't judge until you've walked a mile or two in Berman's shoes. Seems pretty sensible to me.
It's been pointed out in other areas that I don't need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad. I don't need to be a tailor to know a jacket doesn't fit.
But someone that studies culinary arts would know that establishment serves bad food without ever going in. Having knowledge of a taylor would allow you to know a good quality jacket over a cheap one.
Only if someone in their cooking class told them before hand. And as for tailoring, you don't need to be a tailor to pick up a jacket and see a shoddy sewing job or missing buttons or cheap material.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:35 PM   #38
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Josan wrote: View Post
And as for tailoring, you don't need to be a tailor to pick up a jacket and see a shoddy sewing job or missing buttons or cheap material.
No, but the belief that an understanding of "quality" is somehow inborn or acquired by some naturally democratic osmotic process by anyone and everyone with a mouth, a credit card or a keyboard is arrogant and ridiculous on its face - otherwise, the clothing industry couldn't sell the great numbers of cheap, shoddy and unattractive suits that they do.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:45 PM   #39
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Josan wrote: View Post
And as for tailoring, you don't need to be a tailor to pick up a jacket and see a shoddy sewing job or missing buttons or cheap material.
No, but the belief that an understanding of "quality" is somehow inborn or acquired by some naturally democratic osmotic process by anyone and everyone with a mouth, a credit card or a keyboard is arrogant and ridiculous on its face - otherwise, the clothing industry couldn't sell the great numbers of cheap, shoddy and unattractive suits that they do.
You are absolutely correct.
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Old December 11 2008, 11:52 PM   #40
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

It's just preposterous for a lot of people commenting on something they know nothing about.
That's an excellent line. It's amazing how many people make personal attacks without ever knowing what goes on. Criticising the work is one thing, but the attacks directed on individuals are ridiculous.
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Old December 12 2008, 12:20 AM   #41
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Santa Claus wrote: View Post
Brent Spiner is correct. While Rick Berman is responsible for some real duds, he's also helmed Star Trek during some of it's most brilliant moments. He is mediocre in his story telling, but his management skills and business acumen are superb. I wish he'd have taken more of a backseat creatively, and focused more on his well honed talents. The anger and bile against him is not justified. Irritation and frustration? Certainly, but the level of anger and hatred toward the man is just beyond reasonable.

J.
That's a pretty accurate, IMO, summation of the facts.
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Old December 12 2008, 12:48 AM   #42
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Criticism, like praise, goes with the territory, part of the reason he makes the big bucks. I'm sure Berman wouldn't be returning any Emmy awards or declining a bonus if he were told he was doing a stunning job; by the same token, if people think he did a crappy job, then I guess he gets to suffer the slings and arrows, if he cares at all. Personally, I found his version of Trek frequently boring, generally sterile, often conservative, and more times than not, forgettable. He produced the TV version of a fastfood hamburger, and just as I wouldn't put one in a museum as a testament to the greatness of 20th century cuisine, I wouldn't say his versions of Trek were remarkable, even if they satisfied a great many people and produced a lot of sales for the studio. And he made some decisions that were, perhaps, beyond his expertise, and the results are what they are. Do I have sympathy for the flack he gets now? No. Do I think Trek will be better because he's out of the picture? Possibly. Initially, I welcomes JJ Abrams, but I'm not yet convinced that his take will be any better. Different, but not necessarily better. That Spiner, who seems to have had a lot of influence on things modern Trek, defends him doesn't impress me either.
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Old December 12 2008, 01:11 AM   #43
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

I'm frequently surprised that some people cannot tell the difference between constructive criticism, and abuse. One should be expected and accepted, the other most certainly is not.
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Old December 12 2008, 02:30 AM   #44
Basil
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Whether it's criticism or abuse depends how the audience takes it, in part -- some people have to be screamed at in to get the point while others get it with barely more than a whisper. Being paid big money in the free market system means the stakes go up, and while the average person is expected to get by on a nominal salary and a hearty thanks for all their work, producers like Berman expect millions, many perks, enormous influence, and a lot of ass kissing. Like Wall Street executives, if they are going to expect the big rewards for their work when it succeeds they'd better be able to take the big hits when it does not. Otherwise, get out of the way for someone who can do the job better.
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Old December 12 2008, 02:34 AM   #45
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I'm frequently surprised that some people cannot tell the difference between constructive criticism, and abuse. One should be expected and accepted, the other most certainly is not.
Agreed.

Basil wrote: View Post
Whether it's criticism or abuse depends how the audience takes it, in part...
No. It really, really doesn't.

Additionally, all of this talk about the responses of the producers, et al to "criticism" is really pretty funny - no one over the age of 23 loses sleep because fanboys on the Internet don't like what they do.
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