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Old December 11 2008, 07:06 AM   #16
James Bond
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Siwilliams wrote: View Post
trekkerguy wrote: View Post
For some reason I figured it would be Spiner.

"Protecting Gene's vision" does not mean the restriction of creativity
based on the assumed wishes of a dead man(rest his energies).

"Risk is our business. That's what this starship is all about. That's why we're aboard her." - Captain Kirk.

Berman may have produced alot of good Trek
(most of the credit for the good should be given to the writers),
but far too often he played "Safe Trek" and that's what I don't appreciate.
jj abrahams will screw it up even more....wait he already has
Who? How?
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Old December 11 2008, 08:32 AM   #17
RobertScorpio
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

trekkerguy wrote: View Post
For some reason I figured it would be Spiner.

"Protecting Gene's vision" does not mean the restriction of creativity
based on the assumed wishes of a dead man(rest his energies).

"Risk is our business. That's what this starship is all about. That's why we're aboard her." - Captain Kirk.

Berman may have produced alot of good Trek
(most of the credit for the good should be given to the writers),
but far too often he played "Safe Trek" and that's what I don't appreciate.
Oh, I don't know...I think he played it safe at times, but he took risks..the first Black Captain..the first woman captain..the first bald captain..and he did produce 500+ hours of episodes...I think the guy did a very good job and just stayed too long....

Rob
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Old December 11 2008, 08:45 AM   #18
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
trekkerguy wrote: View Post
For some reason I figured it would be Spiner.

"Protecting Gene's vision" does not mean the restriction of creativity
based on the assumed wishes of a dead man(rest his energies).

"Risk is our business. That's what this starship is all about. That's why we're aboard her." - Captain Kirk.

Berman may have produced alot of good Trek
(most of the credit for the good should be given to the writers),
but far too often he played "Safe Trek" and that's what I don't appreciate.
Oh, I don't know...I think he played it safe at times, but he took risks..the first Black Captain..the first woman captain..the first bald captain..and he did produce 500+ hours of episodes...I think the guy did a very good job and just stayed too long....

Rob
If those things had been done a decade or two earlier it might have been revolutionary.
I don't think the majority of people batted an eye at it.

And in the sense of storytelling... he played it safe. Pretty much always.
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Old December 11 2008, 02:52 PM   #19
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Rick Berman was a very good at the non-creative aspects of his job. At his busiest in 1997 and 98, he was involved with two TV series (DS9 and Voyager) and one feature film (Insurrection) at the same time; that all those productions didn't grind to a halt proves that he was very good at some aspects of the job, at least. Heck, back when TNG was on the air, and Michael Piller ran the writing staff, we all thought Berman was doing great.

As time went on though, Rick Berman began to have more and more of a creative voice in the shows, and since that wasn't where his primary strength lies, the shows suffered. If there had a been a second producer to step in and take care of the creative duties, things might have turned out very differently.

His creative decisions were boneheaded at best, but he did keep the shows running for several years, and he deserves credit for that, because it couldn't have been an easy job. Also, with Voyager and Enterprise, we don't know the full extent of UPN's interference. Decades from now, when everyone involved has written their tell-all books, maybe we'll be able to form more informed opinions.
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Old December 11 2008, 04:16 PM   #20
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Ron Moore once told a story about how Berman refused Ira Behr's plans to have Nog lose both his legs in Siege of AR-558. Behr compromised and decided to have him lose only one leg, but Berman said he could only lose his leg from below the knee. Ira wanted the cut above the knee, so the two started negotiating about how many inches of leg should be cut off.

That is where I turned against Berman. That has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to defend Roddenberry's vision, that was just risk aversion, plain and simple. Roddenberry never said that people don't lose their legs in the future, the whole idea of that is non-sensical. It didn't really matter anyway because he had a synthetic leg installed the next week!

That was a great character moment for Nog, it really let you see how far this character had come. And the episode that followed it where Nog had to overcome his psychological issues relating to this incident was another great character piece. But if Berman had his way then none of it would have come to fruition.

Berman was a great producer behind the scenes, he kept the show on the air and he kept it in budget. He made sure that TNG reached its third season, and he brought Michael Piller in to really make that show what it became. But the Berman who tried to stiffle DS9, the Berman who succeeded in stifling Voyager, the Berman who created bland and uninteresting characters on Enterprise... I just don't like that guy.
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Old December 11 2008, 04:45 PM   #21
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Good on Spiner.
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Old December 11 2008, 06:02 PM   #22
exodus
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

GodBen wrote: View Post
Ron Moore once told a story about how Berman refused Ira Behr's plans to have Nog lose both his legs in Siege of AR-558. Behr compromised and decided to have him lose only one leg, but Berman said he could only lose his leg from below the knee. Ira wanted the cut above the knee, so the two started negotiating about how many inches of leg should be cut off.

That is where I turned against Berman. That has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to defend Roddenberry's vision, that was just risk aversion, plain and simple. Roddenberry never said that people don't lose their legs in the future, the whole idea of that is non-sensical. It didn't really matter anyway because he had a synthetic leg installed the next week!

That was a great character moment for Nog, it really let you see how far this character had come. And the episode that followed it where Nog had to overcome his psychological issues relating to this incident was another great character piece. But if Berman had his way then none of it would have come to fruition.

Berman was a great producer behind the scenes, he kept the show on the air and he kept it in budget. He made sure that TNG reached its third season, and he brought Michael Piller in to really make that show what it became. But the Berman who tried to stiffle DS9, the Berman who succeeded in stifling Voyager, the Berman who created bland and uninteresting characters on Enterprise... I just don't like that guy.
Sorry but you're incorrect, not wanting Nog to loose a limb was part of keeping to Gene's ideas. It was Roddenberry that was dead set against Picard loosing any limbs when he was asimilated as a Borg. Picard was supposed to loose his arm and Gene wouldn't have it.


Spiner is correct, the fans have no idea what it is to be in Berman's position and the scarifices he made to keep Trek running this long as well as having no clue to how Gene wanted Trek to be. Roddenberry would have been very proud of Voyager.
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Old December 11 2008, 07:35 PM   #23
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Hello everyone, First time poster, I signed up just to post on this topic.


Mr Spiner wrote, " It's just preposterous for a lot of people commenting on something they know nothing about."


Well F U Data. Seriously, we know nothing about it? Aren't we the freaking fans of the show??? The criticism stems from the lack of quality in the Voyager series and Berman's later work. If Berman was so great and above criticism, wouldn't Star Trek still have a popular, highly watched, TV series with Berman the man behind the scenes? Well there isn't, because under Berman's watch Star Trek evenutally failed to keep viewership.

So Spiner, whose fault is that?

Mr Spiner said, " I just say to any of them, 'You go produce a television show and produce hundreds of hours of television shows,' which these people have watched more than once."

What a freaking joke. Now you can't criticise a show unless you yourself have produced "hunderds of hours"!?!

I'm sorry but this article really touched a nerve with me. Brent Spiner comes across as an arrogant asshole that is out of touch with regular people. AND THE FANS THAT MADE HIM A STAR IN THE FIRST PLACE!
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Old December 11 2008, 07:56 PM   #24
USS Intrepid
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but this article really touched a nerve with me. Brent Spiner comes across as an arrogant asshole that is out of touch with regular people. AND THE FANS THAT MADE HIM A STAR IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I disagree. Spiner's simply talking sense. How many people here know exactly what it takes to keep a show on the air and on budget for that many years?

I'm willing to bet you don't. And that's the point. Spiner's really just saying don't judge until you've walked a mile or two in Berman's shoes. Seems pretty sensible to me.

Honestly, I don't get the hate.
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Old December 11 2008, 08:14 PM   #25
Alex1939
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
How many people here know exactly what it takes to keep a show on the air and on budget for that many years?

I'm willing to bet you don't. And that's the point.

Ok, so your and Spiner's position is a show can only be criticized if the person criticizing is also a producer/director who has experience in the business?

I don't buy that.




I think Berman did some great work. I also don't think Berman deserves to be "demonized". But there is nothing wrong with criticizing him or his star trek work.

But Spiner is defending his old boss, and in doing say is saying that no fan deserves to be critical because fans know nothing about producing a TV show. That's absurd and rude.


I guess the fans criticisms have spoken loud enough anyway, that's why Berman and Spiner are out of work and neither are wanted in the continuation of the Star Trek franchise.
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Old December 11 2008, 08:20 PM   #26
Saul
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Well I've read enough from other cast members to know that Berman isn't the knight in shining armor that his pal that he worked close with on Trek over the years paints him to be.
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Old December 11 2008, 08:38 PM   #27
USS Intrepid
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
Ok, so your and Spiner's position is a show can only be criticized if the person criticizing is also a producer/director who has experience in the business?
I most certainly am not saying that, and would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

I don't get any sort of impression that Spiner's saying criticism is verboten. He's merely commenting on the excessive, and unnecessary, demonisation of the man. Then again, I guess hate's the easy option for some.

Saul wrote: View Post
Well I've read enough from other cast members to know that Berman isn't the knight in shining armor that his pal that he worked close with on Trek over the years paints him to be.
As with most things, the truth is undoubtedly somewhere in between.
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Old December 11 2008, 09:08 PM   #28
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Saul wrote: View Post
Well I've read enough from other cast members to know that Berman isn't the knight in shining armor that his pal that he worked close with on Trek over the years paints him to be.
Tada
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Old December 11 2008, 09:51 PM   #29
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
Ok, so your and Spiner's position is a show can only be criticized if the person criticizing is also a producer/director who has experience in the business?

I don't buy that.
I think the fair inference is that informed opinion and/or first-hand experience is more interesting that innuendo, gossip and/or emotionalism.

Of course, without big helpings of the latter the Internet would consist mainly of amazon.com and a bunch of MILF pr0n sites...and no one would know who Robert Beltran is.
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Old December 11 2008, 09:53 PM   #30
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Re: Spiner Defends Berman

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
I disagree. Spiner's simply talking sense. How many people here know exactly what it takes to keep a show on the air and on budget for that many years?

I'm willing to bet you don't. And that's the point. Spiner's really just saying don't judge until you've walked a mile or two in Berman's shoes. Seems pretty sensible to me.
It's been pointed out in other areas that I don't need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad. I don't need to be a tailor to know a jacket doesn't fit.
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