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Old November 20 2008, 10:03 PM   #16
Searider Falcon
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Re: Kes on Acid

Unicron wrote: View Post
I seem to recall that Kim was originally supposed to die in "Scorpion," and they had a choice between Garret Wang or Jennifer Lien leaving the cast to make room for Seven. So Kes was written out instead, not very well in either "The Gift" or "Fury."
That's how I always understood it happened and is the story I'm inclined to believe. Supposedly, what kept Garrett Wang from the being the one to get the ax was an article in People Magazine on him, one of their 50 Most Beautiful or something.
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Old November 20 2008, 10:23 PM   #17
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Re: Kes on Acid

exodus wrote: View Post
...being that Jen Lien has been the only actress to be "let go" from Trek..."
Grace Lee Whitney, from Memory Alpha:

"...Intended to appear in far more episodes than she ultimately did, Whitney's Yeoman Rand was often written out of episodes, due to the actress' struggle with alcohol, weight, and drug issues. In her autobiography, The Longest Trek: My Tour of the Galaxy, Whitney describes two incidents in which she was sexually assaulted by members of the Star Trek production team, neither of whom is identified by name. Replaced by Dr. Helen Noel in "Dagger of the Mind", Whitney was ultimately fired, appearing only in the background of her final episode, "The Conscience of the King". Sliding deeper into addiction and even prostitution, Whitney began her recovery in the 1980s and has gone on to appear in many more Star Trek productions..."

She truly was fired for drug and alcohol problems; it may be where this rumor got started.
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Old November 21 2008, 06:50 AM   #18
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Re: Kes on Acid

i really liked kes, especially when her powers began to grow. she could have been a great char to keep over kim. she's one of those "what if she'd stayed" chars like tasha yar.

i loved her return as dark phoenix in her final ep. i also liked that they actually got her to go back home. maybe she'll inspire the rest of the ocampa to be more bold. imagine a race of super telekinetics/telepaths roaming about the galaxy. galaxy beware!
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Old November 21 2008, 06:57 AM   #19
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Re: Kes on Acid

Yes, I didn't think Lien was the only one let go from Trek. Though with so many problems beset Whitney it really isn't any wonder. I still think Crosby may have been pushed. Also, wasn't McFadden let go first and then they allowed her to come back?

Nobody has answered my question really. I didn't expect a definite answer but did people hear of these rumours upon meeting Jennifer Lien and deciding she acts weird and not the norm labelled her a drug fiend or were their rumours when she joined and was still a star on it?
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Old November 21 2008, 03:17 PM   #20
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Re: Kes on Acid

Unicron wrote: View Post
The problem with "The Gift" is that Kes' mental abilities, which weren't used consistently to begin with, were arbitrarily made a huge leap more powerful just so there was a reason to get her off the ship. They were a plot device for that purpose, not a real problem that was central to the character. "Fury" is another matter entirely. Yar and Jadzia were both killed in the line of duty, so their departures were more fitting to me.
Again I disagree, "Coldfire" shows and explains the extent of Ocampian mental abilities and exactly what she saw beyond the sub-atomic as well as why she became the way she did in "Fury". Writers had thought all about this long before they had decided to let the character go. "Coldfire" and "Fury" are actually bookend eps.

Tanis tells Kes in "Coldfire" that once she gains full ability of her mental powers, her like others Ocampians on Susperia's array will have the ability to enhance life as well as take it away. Due too that, she will start to look upon other humanoids as pets and beneath her. Also if you notice in "Coldfire" when Kes burns the plants it gives her something close to sexual release. It gives her a thrill!! Tanis also tells Kes that she can exsist on a plane of nothing but mental energy similar to the astral plane, Exosha is what he calls it. This is what Kes sees beyond the sub-atomic.

At the end of the ep. Kes is talking to Tuvok and she tells him: " My mental abilities scare me because they let out my darker impulses." She's basically telling him her powers overwhelms her better judgement and she enjoys it. She then tells him: "I will never use them again." Tuvok then states: "You shouldn't be afraid of your darker impulses, we all have them. You must learn to accept that side of yourself." So knowing that she's dangerous, he still encourages her to use them.

So encountering Species 8472 cause her abilities to go out of wack and lets those dark impulses out again. Notice how Kes stops Seven of Nine from contacting the Borg, she eletrocutes her! So she becomes an energy being and enters Exosha after leaving the ship and the thrill of her dark impulses, deteriorating mental state due to aging as explained in "Before & After" and being alone without proper guidance causes "Fury" Kes.

All of this was thought out well in advance.
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Old November 21 2008, 03:52 PM   #21
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Re: Kes on Acid

It was gradual and something that the caretaker or the Kazon may have stopped other Ocompans from getting their mental states.

Kes is a character I liked and if people have anxiety issues, to diss them and be nasty (basically bullying) is not very good and it was Lien's choice to leave and as I have a learning disability myself, sometimes people are ignorant of these issues that disabilities/problems are essentially "hidden" from normal view.

Give the woman some flak, I know how it can be and it just seems odd you don't often hear of her? (or i could be wrong)
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Old November 21 2008, 04:31 PM   #22
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Re: Kes on Acid

voyagerfan wrote: View Post
It was gradual and something that the caretaker or the Kazon may have stopped other Ocompans from getting their mental states.

Kes is a character I liked and if people have anxiety issues, to diss them and be nasty (basically bullying) is not very good and it was Lien's choice to leave and as I have a learning disability myself, sometimes people are ignorant of these issues that disabilities/problems are essentially "hidden" from normal view.

Give the woman some flak, I know how it can be and it just seems odd you don't often hear of her? (or i could be wrong)
You mean "Slack".

Giving someone "flak" means to give them a hard time.
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Old November 21 2008, 05:42 PM   #23
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Re: Kes on Acid

OOPS I meant slack I had slack in my head tough. Odd
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Old November 21 2008, 05:57 PM   #24
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Re: Kes on Acid

voyagerfan wrote: View Post
OOPS I meant slack I had slack in my head tough. Odd
Hey, at least I knew what you meant.
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Old November 21 2008, 07:21 PM   #25
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Re: Kes on Acid

We might have to agree to disagree, exodus. I had no problem with how her telepathy was used in "Scorpion" because it was tied directly into the story, but there's not really much to suggest that her contact with 8472 was the cause of her abilities suddenly going into hyperdrive the next episode. I do think how she dealt with Seven, as well as healing her, was pretty cool. But a lot of the other uses of her powers in "The Gift" were, IMO, silly plot contrivances.

I'd have to watch "Coldfire" again, but since Suspiria apparently wasn't above manipulating the Ocampans who followed her, I'm not overly inclined to believe all of Tanis' statements.

I think "Fury" suffers from some of the some contrivances that "The Gift" does, albeit used a lot more glaringly, and that is the reason many fans dislike the episode. There's not a good context for Kes becoming so aggressive or feeling betrayed by Janeway, as it was her decision to leave in "The Gift." The time paradox resolves it a little too easily for me, plus her powers are used somewhat inconsistently again - she's only able to knock Janeway against a wall, but earlier in the modern time she could destroy bulkheads with a merely thought? She could draw energy somehow from the warp core to facilitate her time jump, but couldn't absorb a phaser blast?

Meh. I know I'm way too nitpicky. But it can be fun sometimes, and there are areas of these episodes that could have been better.
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Old November 21 2008, 07:43 PM   #26
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Re: Kes on Acid

As a longtime fan of the character Kes, I remember when this nasty rumor started to raise its ugly head on the net. I have done some investigation in it during the years and what I know, there is no truth at all in the rumor.

The "drug rumor" actually started about another actor long before Lien was kicked out from Voyager (that rumor has never been confirmed either). When Lien was fired, the rumor "spilled over" to her.

Jennifer Lien is a very shy person and also acts a little "spacey" at conventions and such. This, plus the fact that she was fired from the show obviously lead t the rumor spilling over to her.

As for people who have been falsely accused for doing drugs, many people believed that Frank Zappa was an LSD addict. Zappa never touched drugs and were known to be very anti-drugs.

The same for the 80:s punk rock singer Nina Hagen who also acted a bit "spacey" in public. She was also accused for being a drug addict but never touched anything stronger than orange juice.

Jennifer Lien was not fired for doing drugs. Jennifer Lien was fired because the producers and writers wanted to add a Borg character or a "sexy babe" to the show. When they did come up with a character which was both Borg and "sexy", they were too greedy to add that character while still keeping all the original characters. One had to go.

The first choice was obviously Garret Wang (Harry Kim). But when a silly poll among the staff of a magazine showed him as "one of the 50 most handsome", those in charge of the show changed their minds and dumped Jennifer Lien (Kes) instead.

Jennifer Lien was very sad and depressed when she was told that she had to leave. The other cast members didn't like it either.
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Old November 21 2008, 07:48 PM   #27
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Re: Kes on Acid

Unicron wrote: View Post
We might have to agree to disagree, exodus. I had no problem with how her telepathy was used in "Scorpion" because it was tied directly into the story, but there's not really much to suggest that her contact with 8472 was the cause of her abilities suddenly going into hyperdrive the next episode. I do think how she dealt with Seven, as well as healing her, was pretty cool. But a lot of the other uses of her powers in "The Gift" were, IMO, silly plot contrivances.

I'd have to watch "Coldfire" again, but since Suspiria apparently wasn't above manipulating the Ocampans who followed her, I'm not overly inclined to believe all of Tanis' statements.

I think "Fury" suffers from some of the some contrivances that "The Gift" does, albeit used a lot more glaringly, and that is the reason many fans dislike the episode. There's not a good context for Kes becoming so aggressive or feeling betrayed by Janeway, as it was her decision to leave in "The Gift." The time paradox resolves it a little too easily for me, plus her powers are used somewhat inconsistently again - she's only able to knock Janeway against a wall, but earlier in the modern time she could destroy bulkheads with a merely thought? She could draw energy somehow from the warp core to facilitate her time jump, but couldn't absorb a phaser blast?

Meh. I know I'm way too nitpicky. But it can be fun sometimes, and there are areas of these episodes that could have been better.
I agree on your statement about "Fury" here. There was no logical reason for the pathetic creature who was supposed to be Kes to act the way she did. Kes, with her strong willpower, was probably the last person who would go crazy like that and she had no reason for blaming Janeway for her own decision to join the crew. Besides that, the real Kes would rather scrifice herself than to harm any of her crewmates.

As for "Fury", that episode should never have been made.

I must also express my gratitude for the possibility to have a cordial debate about the character Kes on this forum. That is not possible on some other forums.
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Old November 21 2008, 08:36 PM   #28
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Re: Kes on Acid

Unicron wrote: View Post
We might have to agree to disagree, exodus. I had no problem with how her telepathy was used in "Scorpion" because it was tied directly into the story, but there's not really much to suggest that her contact with 8472 was the cause of her abilities suddenly going into hyperdrive the next episode. I do think how she dealt with Seven, as well as healing her, was pretty cool. But a lot of the other uses of her powers in "The Gift" were, IMO, silly plot contrivances.

I'd have to watch "Coldfire" again, but since Suspiria apparently wasn't above manipulating the Ocampans who followed her, I'm not overly inclined to believe all of Tanis' statements.

I think "Fury" suffers from some of the some contrivances that "The Gift" does, albeit used a lot more glaringly, and that is the reason many fans dislike the episode. There's not a good context for Kes becoming so aggressive or feeling betrayed by Janeway, as it was her decision to leave in "The Gift." The time paradox resolves it a little too easily for me, plus her powers are used somewhat inconsistently again - she's only able to knock Janeway against a wall, but earlier in the modern time she could destroy bulkheads with a merely thought? She could draw energy somehow from the warp core to facilitate her time jump, but couldn't absorb a phaser blast?

Meh. I know I'm way too nitpicky. But it can be fun sometimes, and there are areas of these episodes that could have been better.
I'm not the only one that's linked "Coldfire" to "Fury", several other posters on serveral other boards have made the same connection. I only ask that you re-watch the ep. without bias and see the statements for yourself. Believe me, I'm not that creative to make this stuff up.

If you still disagree, then we can agree to disagree.
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Old November 21 2008, 09:15 PM   #29
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Re: Kes on Acid

^^
Sorry, but I must correct you here exodus.

There aren't "several" posters who connect "Cold Fire" with the horrible episode "Fury", only a few who happen to strongly dislike the character (to say the least).

I must state that I see no connection at all between those episodes.

"Cold Fire" was about Kes being tempted by evil forces but also being able to withstand them in the long run, due to strong will-power and self control.

"Fury" was an out-of -character episode about a crazy maniac trying to destroy the ship and kill the crew for no reason at all.
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Old November 21 2008, 09:20 PM   #30
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Re: Kes on Acid

So, she drops acid once in a while. Cut he some slaaaaaack!

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