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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 131 72.38%
Above Average 35 19.34%
Average 12 6.63%
Below Average 1 0.55%
Poor 2 1.10%
Voters: 181. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 8 2009, 02:49 PM   #451
adamczar
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
One thing I didn't quite understand was what went on with Seven at the end. I mean she was already no longer a member of the Collective and I'd have expected her to have a similar (if much stronger) reaction to Picard's. But the way I understood it she sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation
We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name. Her aunt calls her Annika, and there have been cases in the TNG-R novels where she's been referred to by other characters as Professor Hansen. It's just been her preference to go by Seven of Nine; all we know at this point is that said preference seems to have changed.

And she's different from Picard because she still had implants, and because she was a Borg far longer. Also she's simply a different individual.
I kind of got a "Lost"-like vibe after this scene was over. I kept hearing the crescendo build up to an uncomfortable climax like at the end of most cliffhangers on that show right before the titlescreen comes up, like "well, there's a LOT more to Seven that we don't know. Hello, Full Circle."

My own guess is that she had a stronger connection to the collective than we (and maybe she) realized. Just a guess, anyway.
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Old January 8 2009, 02:59 PM   #452
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Cut wrote: View Post
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Agreed - but I always thought of the implants as medical necessities, otherwise the EMH would have removed them. So, in essence, why doesn't she die when they disintegrate?
Ah, this reminds me of another question:

Why are there no EMHs in the sickbays of Aventine, Enterprise-E or Titan? At least I don't recall any EMH being mentioned, during the medical and triage scenes.
I seem to remember there being an EMH in Greater Than the Sum. Though, really, with the public understanding that EMHes are sentient, I'm really surprised that Starfleet's still using them. Unless those EMHes are getting control over when they are and are not activated and are getting compensated somehow for their services, wouldn't it constitute slavery?

As for the TR-116 thing....

I don't see how it's "un-Star Trek-y" to have a projectile weapon. It's not like there's a particularly notable moral difference between a bullet and a phaser set to vaporize -- killing someone is killing someone.
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Old January 8 2009, 04:37 PM   #453
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I'm pretty sure that EMHs aboard the Enterprise were referenced. Wasn't there mention of the Aventine's EMH being a newer model, as well?
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Old January 8 2009, 04:38 PM   #454
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Cut wrote: View Post
Why are there no EMHs in the sickbays of Aventine, Enterprise-E or Titan? At least I don't recall any EMH being mentioned, during the medical and triage scenes.
EMHs are standard equipment in all Starfleet sickbays these days. But unlike Voyager's Doctor, they are, as the name implies, emergency systems, meant to be used in situations where living physicians are incapacitated, unavailable, or inadequate in number. There was an EMH Mark IX (which I imagined as being modeled on Dr. Zimmerman's holo-ladyfriend Haley from "Life Line," since it's high time we had a female EMH) in the triage scene in GTTS, and I'm certain that she was mentioned in Destiny as well.


Sci wrote: View Post
Though, really, with the public understanding that EMHes are sentient, I'm really surprised that Starfleet's still using them. Unless those EMHes are getting control over when they are and are not activated and are getting compensated somehow for their services, wouldn't it constitute slavery?
Who said there's a public understanding that EMHs are sentient? The Doctor is sentient, due to his unique experiences aboard Voyager. It doesn't follow that every EMH is sentient. Oliver Baines, the leader of the "holo-revolution" in Homecoming/The Farther Shore, believed all holograms were sentient, but he was a lunatic. The only holograms that we can confidently say are sentient are the Doctor, Moriarty, the Countess, and probably Vic Fontaine.
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Old January 8 2009, 05:18 PM   #455
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I think the TR-116 are ST because its high time they stopped using the electric shavers and got something that really works when they're dealing with enemies who have an immunity to phasers, like the Borg and Hirogen. Naturally no weapon should be used against the Jem'Hadar though...

The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field? I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.
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Old January 8 2009, 05:24 PM   #456
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
But the way I understood it she (Seven) sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation
We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name.
It's not the name, it's the way Seven/Annika is described. I definitely got a very childlike impression of her at the end.
Well, at the same time, Picard was collapsed on the deck crying his eyes out. Not very adult of him, either. The dissolution of the Collective and the Caeliar metamorphosis is a very powerful event that had a profound effect on both these people.

But I'll just follow William Leisner's advice to wait for "Full Circle" (never would have guessed I'd buy a VOY-novel! *g*).
And I never thought I'd recommend one! But in all seriousness, Ms. Beyer will have many of the answers you seek...
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Old January 8 2009, 07:04 PM   #457
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Marie1 wrote: View Post
I think the TR-116 are ST because its high time they stopped using the electric shavers and got something that really works
Those aren't electric shavers -- they're car vacuums. Get it right....
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Old January 8 2009, 07:35 PM   #458
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Marie1 wrote: View Post
The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field?
I don't know that the show ever depicted that, but in my TNG novel A Time to Heal, some Starfleet forces were equipped with modified TR-116s and later versions, which I dubbed TR-120s, though I flubbed the terminology of its exographic targeting sight (I think I called it exogenic, which makes no sense).

I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.
Well, that's a major drawback of projectile weapons. Even with a caseless ammunition system (such as was developed by Heckler & Koch for its G11 advanced combat rifle in the 1980s), one has to balance the conflicting desires for more magazine capacity and lighter weight. Add too much capacity, and the weapon becomes too heavy to use effectively in the field; reduce the capacity to lower the weight, and your troops spend all their time reloading.

The TR-116s probably carry a 30– or 50–round clip of caseless ammunition (invented by Dynamit–Nobel, for Heckler & Koch). Basically, the chemical propellant surrounds the projectile and is consumed during the firing. There is no ejected shell casing, and the combusted propellant is used to drive the reload mechanism. Because it's a closed system, it has less recoil, making it more accurate.

I'd imagine that by the 24th century, Starfleet R&D has also added better stabilizers and developed lighter, stronger composite polymers for the weapon's shell.

All in all, the TR-116 and its cousin, the TR-120, are very sophisticated and very deadly small arms. Add in their monotanium projectiles with monofilament tips, and you have weapons whose accuracy, range, and penetration capacity surpass those of any standard-issue battle rifle currently in existence.
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Old January 8 2009, 07:42 PM   #459
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field?
I don't know that the show ever depicted that, but in my TNG novel A Time to Heal, some Starfleet forces were equipped with modified TR-116s and later versions, which I dubbed TR-120s, though I flubbed the terminology of its exographic targeting sight (I think I called it exogenic, which makes no sense).

I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.
Well, that's a major drawback of projectile weapons. Even with a caseless ammunition system (such as was developed by Heckler & Koch for its G11 advanced combat rifle in the 1980s), one has to balance the conflicting desires for more magazine capacity and lighter weight. Add too much capacity, and the weapon becomes too heavy to use effectively in the field; reduce the capacity to lower the weight, and your troops spend all their time reloading.

The TR-116s probably carry a 30– or 50–round clip of caseless ammunition (invented by Dynamit–Nobel, for Heckler & Koch). Basically, the chemical propellant surrounds the projectile and is consumed during the firing. There is no ejected shell casing, and the combusted propellant is used to drive the reload mechanism. Because it's a closed system, it has less recoil, making it more accurate.

I'd imagine that by the 24th century, Starfleet R&D has also added better stabilizers and developed lighter, stronger composite polymers for the weapon's shell.

All in all, the TR-116 and its cousin, the TR-120, are very sophisticated and very deadly small arms. Add in their monotanium projectiles with monofilament tips, and you have weapons whose accuracy, range, and penetration capacity surpass those of any standard-issue battle rifle currently in existence.
Not to mention when you add those mini transporter things and exographic targeting sights when those are working you can hit anyone in the ship.
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Old January 8 2009, 07:47 PM   #460
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Finally finished the trilogy and I must say that it was the best Trek book in awhile. I am not sure why we had to wait till book 3 to found out the origin of the Borg. Although in my opinion, I thought the origin story could have been written a little better because it felt forced. First the Calier came to them to explain and ask them to help and then suddenly, they walk into a trap?

I also have to give kudos to Mack for writing so much emotion in this story. First by giving Riker the tough decision of leaving his wife behind not knowing when they would return to her.

The scene with Picard lying on the floor in a fetal like position crying hysterically, while I liked it, I thought it was a bit unbecoming of a Starship Captain to do so in front of his officers. I understood why and I thought it well written but I think his breaking down emotionally would have been better off between him and Beverly in private.

And Geordi defying orders, was a bold move but it did give us a nice tribute to Data.

This trilogy was well worth the wait and kudos to Mack for writing one of the best Trek novels in recent memory.
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Old January 8 2009, 08:30 PM   #461
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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And Geordi defying orders, was a bold move but it did give us a nice tribute to Data.
Yes, I liked that scene very much. Is represents a lot of things that Star Trek for me is about.

But I don't want tribute to Data. I want to have Data
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Old January 8 2009, 10:38 PM   #462
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Man of Steel wrote: View Post
Finally finished the trilogy and I must say that it was the best Trek book in awhile. I am not sure why we had to wait till book 3 to found out the origin of the Borg. Although in my opinion, I thought the origin story could have been written a little better because it felt forced. First the Calier came to them to explain and ask them to help and then suddenly, they walk into a trap?
I gathered that the one Caeliear (forgot her name...) had declined similarly to the one that killed the Aventine-crewmembers in GoN. There no longer was any rational thought, or even any thought about setting a trap for the humans. *And* that Caeliar had from the start a very low opinion about respecting the humans etc. I guess the one driving thought was trying to survive by merging with the humans...

The scene with Picard lying on the floor in a fetal like position crying hysterically, while I liked it, I thought it was a bit unbecoming of a Starship Captain to do so in front of his officers. I understood why and I thought it well written but I think his breaking down emotionally would have been better off between him and Beverly in private.
Erm, I guess Picard couldn't help himself or consciously decide to break down later. As I wrote in another thread, this was a reaction absolutely believable to me.

And Geordi defying orders, was a bold move but it did give us a nice tribute to Data.
I liked that scene very much as well - on the other hand would he have hesitated if there had been no chance the Borg could adapt? It was more about the probability of success than about Data, although bringing him into the discussion was a nice touch, given the matter they were discussing.

William Leisner wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
It's not the name, it's the way Seven/Annika is described. I definitely got a very childlike impression of her at the end.
Well, at the same time, Picard was collapsed on the deck crying his eyes out. Not very adult of him, either. The dissolution of the Collective and the Caeliar metamorphosis is a very powerful event that had a profound effect on both these people.
Of course, but at least Picard was still aware of who he was, he didn't "lose" his memories or "time" or anything like that. I didn't get that with Seven, I really had the impression she regressed to the 7 or 8 year old Annika she was when she was first assimilated.

Then again... maybe that's just who she is now, a child in an adult body having to grow up again. Would be plausible considering her cortical implants are gone as well (and who knows how much of her personality/memories were stored there).

And yes, I love to speculate, rather than just wait for a book that's still months away.
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Old January 8 2009, 10:47 PM   #463
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Of course, but at least Picard was still aware of who he was, he didn't "lose" his memories or "time" or anything like that. I didn't get that with Seven, I really had the impression she regressed to the 7 or 8 year old Annika she was when she was first assimilated.

Then again... maybe that's just who she is now, a child in an adult body having to grow up again. Would be plausible considering her cortical implants are gone as well (and who knows how much of her personality/memories were stored there).
Yes... who knows, indeed?

*whistles*
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Old January 8 2009, 10:49 PM   #464
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Of course, but at least Picard was still aware of who he was, he didn't "lose" his memories or "time" or anything like that. I didn't get that with Seven, I really had the impression she regressed to the 7 or 8 year old Annika she was when she was first assimilated.
All that was written was this (at least as I have it in manuscript):
With her beauty no longer blemished by the biomechanical scars of the Borg, Seven looked up at Nanietta Bacco with the tear-streaked face of an innocent.
“My name is Annika.”
I can see how that's consistent with the idea of regressing to a child, but that's hardly the only way to interpret the very minimal information we were given. And there's nothing in that passage which indicates she's lost her memories. She's definitely undergone a fundamental change, but not necessarily the one you think.
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Old January 8 2009, 11:13 PM   #465
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^ I know that I could clarify the matter if I chose to, but I'd rather that people buy and read Kirsten Beyer's epic and masterfully executed Voyager novel Full Circle to find out what has become of Seven/Annika.
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