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View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
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Average 12 6.67%
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Old December 20 2008, 05:48 AM   #361
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Sci wrote: View Post
We know from Book III that the immediate conservative estimates are 63 billion deaths, from both the Federation and neighboring states. Since Book III didn't mention all that many Romulan planets getting hit by the Borg that I could recall[.]
That caught my attention as well. It might be because the attacked Romulan sectors and worlds were low-population. It might also be because the terrifying superweapons that the Romulans have shown themselves ready to develop and use were used rather promiscuously against the Borg with some effect. ("No, stable main-sequence yellow dwarf stars don't naturally hyperflare ...")

I decided to divide the death toll into thirds and assume that the Federation got roughly two-thirds of the deaths, with the Klingons getting most of the remaining third and the Romulans getting the leftovers. Two-thirds of 63 billion is 42 billion -- so I would assume that 42 billion Federates died at the hands of the Borg.
42 billion is 6% of 697.5 billion.

So... Think about that. Six percent of the Federation exterminated in a matter of weeks. In point of fact, when Bacco asked about the death toll just prior to the Borg invasion fleet hitting its first targets, Admiral Akaar said that they had estimated the death toll to be around 30 billion -- meaning that slightly more people died in the 12 or so hours that that invasion fleet was active than died in all the weeks leading up to that. 3% of the Federation died in the course of twelve hours, and 6% in the course of just a couple of weeks.[/quote]

If the Federation's information culture is anything like the early 21st century developed world's many of these holocausts would have ben broadcast live. Way back in 1994, in Peter David's The Siege, Bashir mentioned that in the last hours before the arrival of the first Borg cube the Earth was in a frenzy of fear. I remain as impressed as Bacco that the worlds of Sol system remained as calm and dignified as they did when faced with an overwhelming genocidal force, especially when they would have had access to the last broadcasts and communications from Deneva and who knows how many worlds.

Last edited by rfmcdpei; December 20 2008 at 05:49 AM. Reason: typo
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Old December 20 2008, 05:59 AM   #362
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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^^Just to play devil's advocate, it could be argued that in the original timeline, with the Borg never meeting their final defeat, they would've gone on to kill far more than 60 billion people in the long run. So maybe fewer people are killed by the Borg overall as a result of Adm. Janeway's actions.

Although personally I'm with you -- Adm. J.'s actions were totally selfish and unjustified, regardless of the unintended consequences either way.
I wonder if this line of thinking will be followed up on in Full Circle, if perhaps the surviving members of Voyager's crew won't start to wonder if Future Admiral Janeway screwed the pooch and they start to think that perhaps another twenty years in the Delta Quadrant would have been better than what her actions wrought.
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Old December 20 2008, 06:28 AM   #363
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
If the Federation's information culture is anything like the early 21st century developed world's many of these holocausts would have ben broadcast live. Way back in 1994, in Peter David's The Siege, Bashir mentioned that in the last hours before the arrival of the first Borg cube the Earth was in a frenzy of fear. I remain as impressed as Bacco that the worlds of Sol system remained as calm and dignified as they did when faced with an overwhelming genocidal force, especially when they would have had access to the last broadcasts and communications from Deneva and who knows how many worlds.
I wonder if there might've been an element of apocalyptic burnout going on there. In the last decade and a half, Earth has seen three Borg invasions, a military coup, a long-running war, bombardment by the Breen, and probably a couple other things I'm forgetting both on-screen and off. They've probably got a complex by now, to such an extent that they can't really give a damn about yet another case of impending doom.
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Old December 20 2008, 07:09 AM   #364
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Strider wrote: View Post
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If you see Admiral Janeway, that's fine and dandy -- readers have their own interpretations, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- though I don't recall much of a cynical sense of humor. What I do recall from "Endgame" was a selfish, bitter character who destroyed a perfectly good timeline for her own selfish, bitter desires, and screw the consequences. Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.
To be fair, the consequences also include the end of the Borg as we know them, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
I wonder if the writers of "Endgame" meant for us to assume that the virus completely wiped out the Borg. We saw that Unicomplex blowing up and a queen dying, after all. That said, I like the Trek Lit interpretation of things better. Plus, after seven seasons of Star Trek:Voyager excusing Janeway's actions, it's nice to see the character getting a harsher treatment in the books.
That was always my interpretation of Endgame - that those events led to the destruction of the Borg as we knew them, thus, somewhat justifying old-Janeway's actions. She referred to her plan as "dealing a crippling blow to the Collective". It's not her fault the books ended up going in a different direction
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Old December 20 2008, 07:37 AM   #365
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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It was known from our initial introduction to "Destiny" that it was going to be on a scale of its own. While we did get to see some interesting developments such as the origins and new evolution of the Borg, I am left a little bit disappointed though that the biggest claim Destiny has to being "game-changing" as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned was in simply massacreing a bunch of worlds and starships. While we've never seen anything on this scale before, blowing up ships and scorching planets isn't anything we haven't seen before in numerous Star Trek series. Perhaps the hype just had my sights set a little too high, but I felt almost as if the "scale of epicness" of this novel was attempting to be made by the number of deaths they packed in. Sure, there will be consequences, but really, the Federation isn't left that different from what it was before (minus a few relatively minor worlds).
Now, that's hardly fair. First of all, a lot of the expectations you have about Destiny are probably from exaggerated hype and speculation rather than anything that was officially promised.
You're quite right, the books were hyped like crazy, and deservedly so. However, massive destruction to the Federation has been a topic of fanboy conversation for years, so I just mean that in that respect, this wasn't really anything new to people's imaginations. Where Destiny really stands out to me in its originality is in the events surrounding the Columbia and her crew and the evolution of the Borg (both of which were handled marvelously). And I certainly don't mean this to say that the Borg invasion was not dramatic... just not entirely original.
And there are other changes and consequences, both astropolitical and personal, that won't really be seen until you read A Singular Destiny, Over a Torrent Sea, Full Circle, and Losing the Peace.
And I definitely look forward to all of them!

In my mind, "game-changing" would have been doing something like removing the ability for warp drive, or causing all Vulcans to go insane after poisoning their ability to mindmeld, or forcing a complete reorganization of characters and defining new crew purposes resulting in totally reshaped novel series.
I'd call those more "gimmicky" and "gratuitous" than "game-changing."
Well, I don't know that I'd call bringing chaos to the order of the Federation any less gratuitous. Like the draw to most disaster movies, people get a kick out of seeing mass destruction. But obviously, the devil is in the details.


Never occurred to me. Heck, they aren't even born yet. A little early to be picking china patterns.
Fair enough. It was just the first thing that popped into my mind that it seemed too convenient that TNG's two highest ranking crewmembers will both be having children at the same time of opposite sexes for this not to have been a thought. At least I see a lot of story potential there to be tapped into!


I found the inclusion of the real-science relativistic time travel to be intriguing as it's something that the series and movies have never really dealt with. I am, however, curious as to the reasons why the creatrors chose to go by this road... The Columbia had already been flung far off into a distant part of space with disabled warp engines. Was there any specific reasons why Hernandez couldn't have simply encountered the Caeliar in their "present" time around 2155? Why did they have to be displaced more than a decade into the future first? It obviously did enhance their sense of isolation but was this the only reason?
Well, it was cool. It's also reasonable. As you say, they were in deep space without warp engines -- it would be unrealistic for them to just happen to be within a few days' or weeks' impulse travel of an inhabited system (although that happened more than once onscreen). And the Caeliar certainly weren't going to go out and meet them.
I definitely enjoyed seeing it because it's one of those pieces of science that the TV series always neglected to explain - why does warp speed not result in relativistic time travel? As I thought about it after, I realized that for myself having studied physics, I knew exactly to what was being refered. However, I wonder if the average joe-Star Trek fan wouldn't have been left scratching their head in confusion.
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Old December 20 2008, 11:26 AM   #366
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

with all this death and destruction, shouldn't retired officers like Sisko and Ross come back for a while (should only take a decades )
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Old December 20 2008, 11:43 AM   #367
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Marcus Porcius Cato wrote: View Post
with all this death and destruction, shouldn't retired officers like Sisko and Ross come back for a while (should only take a decades )
We don't know what either one of them have been up to since leaving Starfleet. We especially don't know what Sisko's been up to between Fearful Symmetry and Destiny.
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Old December 20 2008, 03:07 PM   #368
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Elemental wrote: View Post
That was always my interpretation of Endgame - that those events led to the destruction of the Borg as we knew them, thus, somewhat justifying old-Janeway's actions. She referred to her plan as "dealing a crippling blow to the Collective". It's not her fault the books ended up going in a different direction
Dealing a crippling blow to the Borg isn't the same as destroying them outright. They may have lost the Queen and the Unicomplex to the pathogen but we all know how adaptable the Borg are. Even if we ignore TrekLit, we see from the show that a Queen can be replaced, while some of the Borg ships proved resistant to the pathogen, meaning this resistance could then be spread to the rest of the Collective.

As for the Transwarp Hub, it was basically the equivalent of losing a leg; you may not be able to run anywhere any more, but you can still hop about. You may even find a replacement (the subspace tunnels).
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Old December 20 2008, 03:35 PM   #369
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Elemental wrote: View Post
That was always my interpretation of Endgame - that those events led to the destruction of the Borg as we knew them, thus, somewhat justifying old-Janeway's actions. She referred to her plan as "dealing a crippling blow to the Collective". It's not her fault the books ended up going in a different direction
As Rowan Sjet says, a crippling blow isn't the same as a mortal blow. "Crippled" means seriously or permanently impaired, but still alive. So "Endgame" wasn't about destroying the Borg altogether, just greatly reducing their power and effectively eliminating them as a threat to the Federation for the foreseeable future -- or at least until some future story required them to become a threat again.


Elemental wrote: View Post
Fair enough. It was just the first thing that popped into my mind that it seemed too convenient that TNG's two highest ranking crewmembers will both be having children at the same time of opposite sexes for this not to have been a thought. At least I see a lot of story potential there to be tapped into!
Well, it is kind of a coincidence, I think. Riker and Troi starting a family was a thread I introduced in Orion's Hounds on impulse (or rather, because it seemed the story was taking me in that direction) and that Marco and subsequent authors chose to elaborate on. Picard and Crusher starting a family was a thread Margaret chose to pursue. So the impetus comes from different sources, although I assume Marco and Margaret coordinated their efforts to some extent, or at least kept each other in the loop.

What makes things even more coincidental is that Beverly and Deanna got pregnant within two weeks of each other. According to Dave's estimates, Deanna got pregnant (the second time) around December 2, 2380, and according to my calculations, Beverly got pregnant around December 11, 2380, give or take. We definitely didn't plan it that way, and I was surprised when I realized how close the dates were.

Of course, the gestation period of a 3/4 human, 1/4 Betazoid child being carried by a half-human, half-Betazoid mother won't necessarily be the same as the gestation period of a full human. For what it's worth, Betazoid pregnancies are typically 10 months long. But hybrids in Trek tend to develop at unpredictable rates.



I definitely enjoyed seeing it because it's one of those pieces of science that the TV series always neglected to explain - why does warp speed not result in relativistic time travel?
Well, it's time dilation, not time travel. And there's no reason why warp travel would cause time dilation, because it isn't conventional motion. Time dilation is a consequence of the Special Theory of Relativity, which applies only to the limited case of unaccelerated motion through flat spacetime. For something like warp drive, which involves distorting spacetime, you need to apply the General Theory of Relativity. That's a broader theory, so the rules that apply in the particular case of the Special Theory don't always apply.

Put another way, a ship in warp isn't really moving through space; it's sitting still in the pocket of space it occupies, but the geometry of space around it is being changed so that pocket of space effectively moves to a different part of the universe. It's a totally different situation from the one that produces time dilation.
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Old December 20 2008, 07:58 PM   #370
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
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That was always my interpretation of Endgame - that those events led to the destruction of the Borg as we knew them, thus, somewhat justifying old-Janeway's actions. She referred to her plan as "dealing a crippling blow to the Collective". It's not her fault the books ended up going in a different direction
As Rowan Sjet says, a crippling blow isn't the same as a mortal blow. "Crippled" means seriously or permanently impaired, but still alive. So "Endgame" wasn't about destroying the Borg altogether, just greatly reducing their power and effectively eliminating them as a threat to the Federation for the foreseeable future -- or at least until some future story required them to become a threat again.
Yes I realize this. I don't blame them for not wanting to rule out all possibilties of ever bringing them back.

I definitely enjoyed seeing it because it's one of those pieces of science that the TV series always neglected to explain - why does warp speed not result in relativistic time travel?
Well, it's time dilation, not time travel. And there's no reason why warp travel would cause time dilation, because it isn't conventional motion. Time dilation is a consequence of the Special Theory of Relativity, which applies only to the limited case of unaccelerated motion through flat spacetime. For something like warp drive, which involves distorting spacetime, you need to apply the General Theory of Relativity. That's a broader theory, so the rules that apply in the particular case of the Special Theory don't always apply.

Put another way, a ship in warp isn't really moving through space; it's sitting still in the pocket of space it occupies, but the geometry of space around it is being changed so that pocket of space effectively moves to a different part of the universe. It's a totally different situation from the one that produces time dilation.
K... is this something that was ever referred to in any of the series? I know explanations such as this have been given in other shows and movies but never Star Trek. Maybe the novels made this clear because they love to clarify incongruities but I doubt it was mentioned in the series, same as there was no explanation for why we hear sound in space.
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Old December 20 2008, 08:18 PM   #371
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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I definitely enjoyed seeing it because it's one of those pieces of science that the TV series always neglected to explain - why does warp speed not result in relativistic time travel?
Well, it's time dilation, not time travel. And there's no reason why warp travel would cause time dilation, because it isn't conventional motion. Time dilation is a consequence of the Special Theory of Relativity, which applies only to the limited case of unaccelerated motion through flat spacetime. For something like warp drive, which involves distorting spacetime, you need to apply the General Theory of Relativity. That's a broader theory, so the rules that apply in the particular case of the Special Theory don't always apply.

Put another way, a ship in warp isn't really moving through space; it's sitting still in the pocket of space it occupies, but the geometry of space around it is being changed so that pocket of space effectively moves to a different part of the universe. It's a totally different situation from the one that produces time dilation.
K... is this something that was ever referred to in any of the series? I know explanations such as this have been given in other shows and movies but never Star Trek. Maybe the novels made this clear because they love to clarify incongruities but I doubt it was mentioned in the series, same as there was no explanation for why we hear sound in space.
The shows never addressed time dilation one way or the other, unless you count "Timescape." I'm just offering the real-science explanation for why warp drive wouldn't have time dilation.

As for sound in space, I've always just treated that as dramatic license. When there's incidental music playing in a scene, you don't assume the characters are actually hearing that music, do you? It's an "unreal" sound that's added for the audience's benefit. I assume the same is true of sound effects in space.
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Old December 20 2008, 08:41 PM   #372
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Ya, I always think of the sound effects as something you would hear if you were at the very source of the sound.

Since "warp speed" doesn't exist, offering THE real-science explanation for it is entirely speculation... but you're right, that's what I go with as well as far as the shows are concerned.
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Old December 20 2008, 10:29 PM   #373
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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Since "warp speed" doesn't exist, offering THE real-science explanation for it is entirely speculation... but you're right, that's what I go with as well as far as the shows are concerned.
Not speculation; theoretical prediction. As Miguel Alcubierre showed in 1994, a spacetime metric which functions equivalently to a "warp drive" can be derived from the equations of General Relativity. It is an actual theoretical possibility that physicists have been studying for over a decade, although the practical obstacles to achieving it may be insurmountable. The power of theory is that it lets you predict or extrapolate things beyond what's been observed. If you know the equations that govern motion, time, mass, and energy in situations that have been measured, if you've experimentally verified those equations, then you can apply those same equations to situations that haven't yet been experienced and calculate with a high degree of confidence what would happen in those situations. Calculation is not speculation.
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Old December 21 2008, 05:37 AM   #374
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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I doubt very much that any of those species (races, I can never remember which term to use when reffering to people from different planets in Trek) are completely gone. For the Federation members there are probably alot of them in Starfleet serving on other planets and starships, and even the non-Federation members probably had alot of ex-pats living on other planets, such as traders, Ambassadors, citizens who just decided to live on other planets, ect..
I assume you're not excluding Federation members from that last category. The way you phrased it could be taken to imply that Starfleet is the only reason why a UFP member would leave one's homeworld, but surely that's not what you meant?
That's not what I meant at all. I also realize now there are actually alot of people from no-Federation member planets in Starfleet.
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Old December 21 2008, 05:56 AM   #375
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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Since "warp speed" doesn't exist, offering THE real-science explanation for it is entirely speculation... but you're right, that's what I go with as well as far as the shows are concerned.
Not speculation; theoretical prediction. As Miguel Alcubierre showed in 1994, a spacetime metric which functions equivalently to a "warp drive" can be derived from the equations of General Relativity. It is an actual theoretical possibility that physicists have been studying for over a decade, although the practical obstacles to achieving it may be insurmountable. The power of theory is that it lets you predict or extrapolate things beyond what's been observed. If you know the equations that govern motion, time, mass, and energy in situations that have been measured, if you've experimentally verified those equations, then you can apply those same equations to situations that haven't yet been experienced and calculate with a high degree of confidence what would happen in those situations. Calculation is not speculation.
I know, I've heard these theories too. There`s theories about parallel universes, transporters, and all that too.
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