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View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 19 2008, 08:23 PM   #346
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

It may to an extent... but surely a lot of those people, in light of an impending Borg attack which the Fed. was losing against, had the presence of mind to... I don't know... leave? I'm surprised the amount of people who stayed did... of their own free will no less... (in some cases). I don't have the ties to "home" as in the dirt of it as some people though... I'd rather leave the dirt with the people and with the living family make a new home... alive.

So despite the body count, I'd imagine some of the populations and their cultures live on and can rebuild or whatever... maybe.
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Old December 19 2008, 08:49 PM   #347
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Marie1 wrote: View Post
It may to an extent...
Sixty-three billion deaths is a game-changer to a HUGE extent. That'd be the equivalent of the United States losing millions of citizens.

but surely a lot of those people, in light of an impending Borg attack which the Fed. was losing against, had the presence of mind to... I don't know... leave? I'm surprised the amount of people who stayed did... of their own free will no less... (in some cases). I don't have the ties to "home" as in the dirt of it as some people though... I'd rather leave the dirt with the people and with the living family make a new home... alive.


I want you to pause and consider something:

You're talking about the mass evacuation of dozens of planets. In fact, let's pause and do some calculations here.

Let's assume that in the 24th Century, the average Federation planet, and those of its neighbors, has a population of about 3 billion. 63 billion deaths. 63 / 3 = 21.

So, you're talking about the mass evacuation of 21 planets. In fact, you're talking about the mass evacuation of more than 21 planets, since the Federation and its neighbors had no way of knowing which planets were going to be targetted in advance. You're talking about the mass evacuation of all of local space.

It's just not gonna happen.

Even if every single person out there wanted it, there simply would never be the resources to carry it out. There wouldn't be enough ships, there wouldn't be the organizational infrastructure, there wouldn't be enough time to put everything in place. The entire idea is absurd on its face.

The Destiny trilogy made it clear that everyone who could flee Federation space did. It also made it clear that there simply weren't enough resources to evacuate the majority of people. Yes, there were also people who stayed -- people who knew that they were needed on a given planet to preserve law and order during evacuations, people who stayed because they felt that they had nowhere else to go, people who didn't want to abandon their homes, people who believed that the extermination of the Federation was inevitable and did not want to leave their homes in a futile attempt to become refugees.

So despite the body count, I'd imagine some of the populations and their cultures live on and can rebuild or whatever... maybe.
Maybe. Again, you're forgetting that in the weeks prior to the arrival of the final invasion fleet at the end of Book II, the Federation never knew which planet was going to get hit next. And of course, with that 7,000-cube fleet, they hit all of their targets within twenty-four hours of arriving in the Alpha Quadrant -- not enough time at all to fully evacuate most worlds, especially ones hit in the first wave.

Frankly, I wouldn't hold out any hope for the peoples of Ramatis, Risa, or Coridan, amongst others. Deneva was originally a colony world, but those others weren't -- I'm more inclined to think that the Ramatisians, Risians, and Coridanites are now all but extinct.
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Old December 19 2008, 09:12 PM   #348
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Marie1 wrote: View Post
It may to an extent... but surely a lot of those people, in light of an impending Borg attack which the Fed. was losing against, had the presence of mind to... I don't know... leave? I'm surprised the amount of people who stayed did... of their own free will no less... (in some cases). I don't have the ties to "home" as in the dirt of it as some people though... I'd rather leave the dirt with the people and with the living family make a new home... alive.
What you're not taking into account is that not every person and/or family on every planet in the Federation owns a vessel capable of interstellar or even interplanetary travel. Many of them probably rely on public transportation and private commercial transports. And the number of such vessels is naturally finite. It would take a lot of ships a long time to completely evacuate a planet of two billion people.

ETA: Sci beat me to it, and said it better to boot.
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Old December 19 2008, 09:20 PM   #349
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^ & ^^ True, but in the book, they started at the Nebula, and worked their way out from there. So it wasn't entirely random, especially once the conduits were found, which was before the Borg fleet got there by hours.

And I'm also assuming some people would want to stay anyway, given I just watched the DS9 episode about that guy that didn't want to leave the moon...

I know about planetary evac from DS9's gateways book. Just over 8 hours to move over 2 million people (they had enough ships of their own to get a million people off) spread out over a planet with just a few ships. (Albeit they could take them elsewhere and come back for more). But it just seemed like an awful lot of the populace of those planets stayed put. I mean, a lot of large freighters don't have enough guns to be of use in battle, but can take a lot of people. Little Defiant, a tiny warship, could take 150, so how much could something that can take 5 Kilotons of whatever at warp 9.8?

I never said everyone would get off, I'm just saying that the body count is high given how many planets were actually destroyed/affected. Andor for instance, I believe has less than a billion because I'm not sure there are much more than a billion Andorians period. You made the planet list:

Sci wrote: View Post
I was going over Destiny Book III and decided to come up with a list of planets and their known fates. What I have so far is:

Confirmed Exterminated:
Ramatis (species homeworld)
Acamar (species homeworld)
Deneva

Believed Exterminated:
Coridan (species homeworld)
Risa (species homeworld)
Regulus
Korvat
Barolia (species homeworld)
Yridia (species homeworld)
Hyralan
Celes

Devestated – Attacks Interrupted:
Qo’noS (species homeworld)
Vulcan (species homeworld)
Andor (species homeworld)
Tellar (species homeworld)
Rigel (species homeworld)
Ardana (species homeworld)

Attacked – Status Unknown:
Aldebaaren
Nausicaa (species homeworld)

Targeted – Status Unknown:
Gorath
Elas (species homeworld)
Ajilon
Archanis
Castor

Targeted – Spared All Damage:
Troyius (species homeworld)
Earth (species homeworld)
Luna
Mars
It just seems like a lot of people chose to stay behind, of the key 19 planets at the top of your list, despite more than 8 hours to get people off- which according to the novels is possible.

Yes, things will change, no matter what proportion of a country or galaxy died. But I really do think that enough people of those whose planets were badly affected to continue the culture.

Risa may have a people, some of whom I'm sure survived, but its also a "pleasure planet" so people on vacation aren't going to stick around for a last sunset if they can help it.
"The planet Coridan had a population of three billion in 2151" (Mem. Alpha) so low-ish pop, and since they were attacked by the Dominion during the war, its not out of place to think they'd have a backup/evac plan given that experience.
Korvat was only a colony, in 2289, so I'm not sure how big the pop. would be.
The last three I'm not sure, but wasn't Barolia or the one below it on the list killed in GTTS in a sneak attack? So that would indeed have no chance of escape.

Maybe its just the way I read it, but it seemed like some just... stayed. And I don't think I would.
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Old December 19 2008, 10:11 PM   #350
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Marie1 wrote: View Post
^ & ^^ True, but in the book, they started at the Nebula, and worked their way out from there. So it wasn't entirely random, especially once the conduits were found, which was before the Borg fleet got there by hours.
No, it wasn't random, but the Federation never knew who the Borg were planning on hitting next during the early weeks of the war. And during the final invasion, they weren't able to predict things all the time, either, because the ships were constantly splitting up and going off and such.

I know about planetary evac from DS9's gateways book. Just over 8 hours to move over 2 million people (they had enough ships of their own to get a million people off) spread out over a planet with just a few ships. (Albeit they could take them elsewhere and come back for more).
Right. Even with plenty of ships, and even with an unusually orderly and compliant populace that was apparently able to be relocated with less than a day's notice, it took them eight hours to move only 2 million people. 3 billion divided by 2 million equals 1,500. 8 hours per 2 million people times 1,500 collections of 2 million people equals 12,000 hours to evacuate a planet under ideal circumstances. 12,000 hours divided by 24 hours equals 500 days. 500 days divided by 365 days equals 1.37 years.

Think about that. It would take 1.37 years, even under ideal circumstances -- which the Europa Nova evacuation virtually was -- to evacuate a single planet. Multiple that by 21!

Mass evacuation was simply never a feasible option for the vast majority of the populace. For all that the Federation is a space-faring culture, the majority of its citizens spend the majority of their lives in the natural habitat of the humanoid, a planetary surface. There's just too many people to move.

You might as well ask why there were any people left in New Orleans.

I never said everyone would get off, I'm just saying that the body count is high given how many planets were actually destroyed/affected.
Personally, I think the body count sounds a bit low. And, in point of fact, Bacco made a point of noting that 63 billion deaths was a conservative estimate.

People are hard to move; that's just a fact.

Yes, things will change, no matter what proportion of a country or galaxy died. But I really do think that enough people of those whose planets were badly affected to continue the culture.
I wouldn't count on it. I'd be really surprised if those species had enough members off-world to ever regain a viable population pool going. And even if they did, their planets have all been reduced to dust -- all art, history, architecture, culture from their homeworlds are gone. Even if the species manage to survive, their cultures are going to be irrevocably changed -- and that's assuming that they don't get absorbed into other Federation species' cultures and eventually disappear.

Risa may have a people, some of whom I'm sure survived, but its also a "pleasure planet" so people on vacation aren't going to stick around for a last sunset if they can help it.
Oh, I dunno about that. If I'm convinced that I'm facing the imminent extermination of the entire Federation, I can think of worse places to die than Risa.

"The planet Coridan had a population of three billion in 2151" (Mem. Alpha) so low-ish pop, and since they were attacked by the Dominion during the war, its not out of place to think they'd have a backup/evac plan given that experience.
Hard to say. We know that Coridan's population was reduced almost in half when the Romulans attacked them in 2155, and we know that they were down to a population so low that they couldn't defend their dilithium mines in the 2260s. Who knows what their population was?

Maybe its just the way I read it, but it seemed like some just... stayed. And I don't think I would.
You would if you lacked the resources to leave. It's not like you can just fly away.

ETA:

Out of curiosity, I did some number crunching to give us an idea about how badly the Borg bloodied the Federation. To do that, we need to know how large the population of the Federation is and how many of the dead were Federates to determine what percentage of the Federation was killed.

To start off with, I began with a few basic assumptions. The first being that the capital planet of the average Federation Member State is going to be about 3 billion sentients. I also decided to assume that each Federation Member State has an average of 5 colony worlds each with an average population of 300 million (since the canon has consistently portrayed colony planets as tending to only have populations in the thousands). This yields an average population of 4.5 billion for each Federation Member State. We know from Articles of the Federation that there are 155 Federation Member States, yielding a total Federation population of 697.5 billion.

We know from Book III that the immediate conservative estimates are 63 billion deaths, from both the Federation and neighboring states. Since Book III didn't mention all that many Romulan planets getting hit by the Borg that I could recall, I decided to divide the death toll into thirds and assume that the Federation got roughly two-thirds of the deaths, with the Klingons getting most of the remaining third and the Romulans getting the leftovers. Two-thirds of 63 billion is 42 billion -- so I would assume that 42 billion Federates died at the hands of the Borg.

42 billion is 6% of 697.5 billion.

So... Think about that. Six percent of the Federation exterminated in a matter of weeks. In point of fact, when Bacco asked about the death toll just prior to the Borg invasion fleet hitting its first targets, Admiral Akaar said that they had estimated the death toll to be around 30 billion -- meaning that slightly more people died in the 12 or so hours that that invasion fleet was active than died in all the weeks leading up to that. 3% of the Federation died in the course of twelve hours, and 6% in the course of just a couple of weeks.

For comparison to the real world, the population of the United States is roughly 300 million. 6% of the population of the entire United States is 18 million. For the United States to experience something akin to the Federation's losses in Destiny, it would have to lose 9 million people in the course of two or three weeks and then suddenly lose another 9 million in the course of twelve hours, across a wide swath of the continent. It would be the equivalent of losing the entire populations of the State of Ohio and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or of losing the entire State of Florida.

Or, to measure it in yet another way, it would be akin to the cities of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, and Phoenix all being killed. Or, to put it yet another way, it would be the equivalent of every single Asian-American, every single Native American, and half of every single biracial American being killed.

By comparison, on 9/11, we lost 3,000 people, which is one-tenth of one percent of the entire United States population, and everyone freaked. All of society flip-flopped, the economy took a nosedive, and our entire foreign policy changed.

If 0.1% of a culture's population dying is a game changer, you can bet that 6% dying is a game-changer.
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Old December 19 2008, 10:37 PM   #351
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Sci's right about the logisticaly impossibility of evacuating everyone. However, it's also true that many people were evacuated, and there are many millions of refugees that the Federation has to deal with now. That's one of the issues to be dealt with in next year's books.
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Old December 19 2008, 11:09 PM   #352
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

KRAD wrote: View Post
Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.
Makes "Tuvix" look minor by comparison, doesn't it?
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Old December 19 2008, 11:29 PM   #353
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Sci wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
I know about planetary evac from DS9's gateways book. Just over 8 hours to move over 2 million people (they had enough ships of their own to get a million people off) spread out over a planet with just a few ships. (Albeit they could take them elsewhere and come back for more).
Right. Even with plenty of ships, and even with an unusually orderly and compliant populace that was apparently able to be relocated with less than a day's notice, it took them eight hours to move only 2 million people. 3 billion divided by 2 million equals 1,500. 8 hours per 2 million people times 1,500 collections of 2 million people equals 12,000 hours to evacuate a planet under ideal circumstances. 12,000 hours divided by 24 hours equals 500 days. 500 days divided by 365 days equals 1.37 years.
... did I mix up million and billion? *groan*

Plus for that matter, now that I think about it, even with tons of freighters that must exist and be able to evac thousands- didn't the freighters have to go to the front instead? Wasn't there an order?

I wouldn't count on it. I'd be really surprised if those species had enough members off-world to ever regain a viable population pool going. And even if they did, their planets have all been reduced to dust -- all art, history, architecture, culture from their homeworlds are gone. Even if the species manage to survive, their cultures are going to be irrevocably changed -- and that's assuming that they don't get absorbed into other Federation species' cultures and eventually disappear.
"The planet Coridan had a population of three billion in 2151" (Mem. Alpha) so low-ish pop, and since they were attacked by the Dominion during the war, its not out of place to think they'd have a backup/evac plan given that experience.
Hard to say. We know that Coridan's population was reduced almost in half when the Romulans attacked them in 2155, and we know that they were down to a population so low that they couldn't defend their dilithium mines in the 2260s. Who knows what their population was?
Maybe its just the way I read it, but it seemed like some just... stayed. And I don't think I would.
You would if you lacked the resources to leave. It's not like you can just fly away.
Thats just it- some people decided to stay when they didn't have to, which means that however they were going to get off, even right at the end in those last transports, there must've been room, but people stayed anyway- even Andor with its pop. problem.


...
To start off with, I began with a few basic assumptions. The first being that the capital planet of the average Federation Member State is going to be about 3 billion sentients. I also decided to assume that each Federation Member State has an average of 5 colony worlds each with an average population of 300 million (since the canon has consistently portrayed colony planets as tending to only have populations in the thousands). This yields an average population of 4.5 billion for each Federation Member State. We know from Articles of the Federation that there are 155 Federation Member States, yielding a total Federation population of 697.5 billion.

We know from Book III that the immediate conservative estimates are 63 billion deaths, from both the Federation and neighboring states. Since Book III didn't mention all that many Romulan planets getting hit by the Borg that I could recall, I decided to divide the death toll into thirds and assume that the Federation got roughly two-thirds of the deaths, with the Klingons getting most of the remaining third and the Romulans getting the leftovers. Two-thirds of 63 billion is 42 billion -- so I would assume that 42 billion Federates died at the hands of the Borg.

42 billion is 6% of 697.5 billion.

So... Think about that. Six percent of the Federation exterminated in a matter of weeks. In point of fact, when Bacco asked about the death toll just prior to the Borg invasion fleet hitting its first targets, Admiral Akaar said that they had estimated the death toll to be around 30 billion -- meaning that slightly more people died in the 12 or so hours that that invasion fleet was active than died in all the weeks leading up to that. 3% of the Federation died in the course of twelve hours, and 6% in the course of just a couple of weeks.

For comparison to the real world, the population of the United States is roughly 300 million. 6% of the population of the entire United States is 18 million. For the United States to experience something akin to the Federation's losses in Destiny, it would have to lose 9 million people in the course of two or three weeks and then suddenly lose another 9 million in the course of twelve hours, across a wide swath of the continent. It would be the equivalent of losing the entire populations of the State of Ohio and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or of losing the entire State of Florida.

Or, to measure it in yet another way, it would be akin to the cities of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, and Phoenix all being killed. Or, to put it yet another way, it would be the equivalent of every single Asian-American, every single Native American, and half of every single biracial American being killed.

By comparison, on 9/11, we lost 3,000 people, which is one-tenth of one percent of the entire United States population, and everyone freaked. All of society flip-flopped, the economy took a nosedive, and our entire foreign policy changed.

If 0.1% of a culture's population dying is a game changer, you can bet that 6% dying is a game-changer.
I'm not sure I'd go with 3 billion as an average since many seemed to have less- Andor for instance... but I guess some probably had a lot more... so never mind, that works...
I don't know much about US states, but that is indeed considerable- tho I'd also argue that it was not only *how many* people died during 9/11, the changes also result in the fact the threat still exists, it didn't disappear.

But all those little things aside, I see your point. My question started more with the mental idea- why would someone chose to stay. I'm hoping that those cultures won't disappear, especially given the scope of space travel- especially in cases like Andor because I find it facinating. Andor seems nice and underground- there may be faction (right word?) problems though. Part is the trouble I'm not familiar with a lot of the affected worlds and their cultures. Some were colonies - Klingon etc., so culture-wise they won't vanish.

Still, the actual physical turn this conversation took is neat...
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Old December 19 2008, 11:46 PM   #354
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I doubt very much that any of those species (races, I can never remember which term to use when reffering to people from different planets in Trek) are completely gone. For the Federation members there are probably alot of them in Starfleet serving on other planets and starships, and even the non-Federation members probably had alot of ex-pats living on other planets, such as traders, Ambassadors, citizens who just decided to live on other planets, ect..
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Old December 20 2008, 01:19 AM   #355
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

JD wrote: View Post
I doubt very much that any of those species (races, I can never remember which term to use when reffering to people from different planets in Trek) are completely gone. For the Federation members there are probably alot of them in Starfleet serving on other planets and starships, and even the non-Federation members probably had alot of ex-pats living on other planets, such as traders, Ambassadors, citizens who just decided to live on other planets, ect..
I assume you're not excluding Federation members from that last category. The way you phrased it could be taken to imply that Starfleet is the only reason why a UFP member would leave one's homeworld, but surely that's not what you meant?
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Old December 20 2008, 02:56 AM   #356
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

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If you see Admiral Janeway, that's fine and dandy -- readers have their own interpretations, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- though I don't recall much of a cynical sense of humor. What I do recall from "Endgame" was a selfish, bitter character who destroyed a perfectly good timeline for her own selfish, bitter desires, and screw the consequences. Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.
To be fair, the consequences also include the end of the Borg as we know them, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
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Old December 20 2008, 03:50 AM   #357
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
KRAD wrote: View Post
If you see Admiral Janeway, that's fine and dandy -- readers have their own interpretations, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- though I don't recall much of a cynical sense of humor. What I do recall from "Endgame" was a selfish, bitter character who destroyed a perfectly good timeline for her own selfish, bitter desires, and screw the consequences. Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.
To be fair, the consequences also include the end of the Borg as we know them, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
And I'm sure Tuvok would disagree that the original timeline was 'perfectly good'.
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Old December 20 2008, 04:13 AM   #358
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
KRAD wrote: View Post
If you see Admiral Janeway, that's fine and dandy -- readers have their own interpretations, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- though I don't recall much of a cynical sense of humor. What I do recall from "Endgame" was a selfish, bitter character who destroyed a perfectly good timeline for her own selfish, bitter desires, and screw the consequences. Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.
To be fair, the consequences also include the end of the Borg as we know them, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
I wonder if the writers of "Endgame" meant for us to assume that the virus completely wiped out the Borg. We saw that Unicomplex blowing up and a queen dying, after all. That said, I like the Trek Lit interpretation of things better. Plus, after seven seasons of Star Trek:Voyager excusing Janeway's actions, it's nice to see the character getting a harsher treatment in the books.
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Old December 20 2008, 04:15 AM   #359
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^ Tuvok would also be the first to argue that destroying a timeline (one in which the Federation was at peace, one in which things were generally okay from what we could see) to save one person's sanity is not logical. Also...

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Old December 20 2008, 04:34 AM   #360
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^^Just to play devil's advocate, it could be argued that in the original timeline, with the Borg never meeting their final defeat, they would've gone on to kill far more than 60 billion people in the long run. So maybe fewer people are killed by the Borg overall as a result of Adm. Janeway's actions.

Although personally I'm with you -- Adm. J.'s actions were totally selfish and unjustified, regardless of the unintended consequences either way.
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