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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 131 72.38%
Above Average 35 19.34%
Average 12 6.63%
Below Average 1 0.55%
Poor 2 1.10%
Voters: 181. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 2 2008, 11:19 PM   #241
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

It seems to me that anyone who was badly enough damaged by the Borg to be that vengeful is going to be too weakened to be able to afford starting a war with anybody. They'd have more urgent matters to deal with than petty vengeance.

And I don't see the logic in the argument that humans are "responsible" for the Borg. They were victims, the first drones. Okay, arguably you could say they were responsible for the circumstances that led to the creation of the Borg, but that's really a stretch. I mean, you can trace modern tensions between the Mideast and the West back to actions taken by Winston Churchill and Napoleon, but nobody blames them for 9/11.
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Old December 2 2008, 11:25 PM   #242
Rat Boy
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Brings up an interesting side thought I've been having for years now. Did the Klingons blame Earth for V'Ger? They built it and it ultimately destroyed three of their ships, if not more before the movie started.
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Old December 2 2008, 11:26 PM   #243
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Christopher wrote: View Post
I mean, you can trace modern tensions between the Mideast and the West back to actions taken by Winston Churchill and Napoleon, but nobody blames them for 9/11.
Try the French Crusaders a *lot* further back, who's actions led directly to the rise of Beybers, who more or less invented militant Islamic fundamentalism...
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Old December 2 2008, 11:30 PM   #244
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

After Picard was turned into Locutus, was there a backlash against humans because of that? I don`t think that happened.

I am sure Sisko was not the only person who had problems with that, at least at the beginning. But as far as I know and remember, there was nothing serious.

Since then, more was discovered about the Borg and I think that the Borg consisted first of all of enslaved people should be widely known. I think most people will understand that these humans who became the first building block of the Borg collective were victims, not villains.

On the other hand, I am sure that although the Borg threat is gone there will be a minority who would be less understanding when the truth is revealed. I don`t see a danger of a war but definitely a danger of terrorism.
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Last edited by Baerbel Haddrell; December 2 2008 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Fixed grammar mistake
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Old December 2 2008, 11:40 PM   #245
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

^What you're saying at the end does make alot of sense Baerbel. I haven't read the book yet, but from what people have said here, I could definitely see some angry families of victims getting together and attacking UFP ships, and humans. That would certainly make a whole lot more sense then entire allied governments, and UFP members turing on Earth.
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Old December 3 2008, 02:03 AM   #246
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

JD wrote: View Post
I have a question for the people who think a big war will begin when the truth behind the Borg's origins is revealed, did everyone immediately turn on the Vulcan's when they found out they were responsible for the Romulans?
Think about this: Have the Romulans caused anything even remotely like the kind of death, destruction and assimilation that the Borg have?

Even so, Section 31 felt strongly enough about the origin of the Romulans to send Trip undercover and *keep* him there (in TGTMD) because of the risk of letting word get out about it. And later: Look no further than Stiles from "Balance of Terror". I mean, here's a trained Starfleet officer reduced to little more than a racist bigot just *because* he found that out. You think he was alone?

As for the Borg: I still think it would be in Earth's best interests not to let word about humanity's role in the creation of the Borg get out. You can't be too careful.
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Old December 3 2008, 02:42 AM   #247
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Are we all forgetting that if not for the Romulans ambushing the Columbia there would not have been a problem to begin with?

I think this could go back and back and back...
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Old December 3 2008, 04:04 AM   #248
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Even so, Section 31 felt strongly enough about the origin of the Romulans to send Trip undercover and *keep* him there (in TGTMD) because of the risk of letting word get out about it.
Yeah, but Section 31 is full of paranoid jackasses who fubar things all the time.

And later: Look no further than Stiles from "Balance of Terror". I mean, here's a trained Starfleet officer reduced to little more than a racist bigot just *because* he found that out. You think he was alone?
Probably, considering that we never heard about any problems with regards to Vulcans and Romulans sharing a common ancestry again.

As for the Borg: I still think it would be in Earth's best interests not to let word about humanity's role in the creation of the Borg get out. You can't be too careful.
Yes, you can. Keeping secrets like that undermines democratic governance by reducing accountability. Further, it encourages rage and hostility -- I can more easily picture the Klingons being pissed off about the fact that Humans kept their role as the Borg's first victim secret because of lack of trust than I can picture them sundering the alliance just because "they're looking for any excuse for a fight" (which is a complete misunderstanding of Klingon culture).
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Old December 3 2008, 04:42 AM   #249
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Whether it be by terrorism,or by government order there will be some strife if it becomes public that humans helped create the Borg with the Caeliar.

Since the Caeliar were the primary agents of both the beginning and the end of the Borg,it might stand to reason that civilizations destroyed by the Borg might wanna ask the Caeliar a few 'questions'.

Alas,they've taken off.

So with the primary culprits not available for comment, that leaves the Federation holding the bag.

Now, these events WILL be classified,due to the existence of the Omega Particle (and the consequences of its abuse).The human-Borg connection is icing on the cake.

Keep in mind,there may not even BE an inquiry into why the Borg went ape-shizzle.

They're Borg,and that for the majority stands as explaination enough of the atrocities they committed.
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Old December 3 2008, 06:39 AM   #250
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

wizkid wrote: View Post
Are we all forgetting that if not for the Romulans ambushing the Columbia there would not have been a problem to begin with?

I think this could go back and back and back...
I said the exact same thing.

This is a case of backtracking to a point where you're blaming the descendants of people who were making do with what they had. At this point, everyone who could be considered culpable for the whole thing is dead, so at most, you're blaming the species for something a small group of them did hundreds of years ago. At the moment, at least, recovery is a more pressing need than avenging the death against those who fought and died alongside you.
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Old December 3 2008, 02:56 PM   #251
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I just looked up the current guesstimated population of Earth and I got 6.7 billion. If you put that into the total of 60 billion all together the Borg's Last Stand killed about 9 planet Earths* worth of people. That's a whole bunch of people.

*Early 21st Century Estimates.
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Old December 3 2008, 04:00 PM   #252
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Whether it be by terrorism,or by government order there will be some strife if it becomes public that humans helped create the Borg with the Caeliar.
I don't know about Christopher, and the other people on this side of the argument, but I don't doubt that there will be problems. I just don't think everyone will immediately turn on humanity/the UFP.
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Old December 3 2008, 05:54 PM   #253
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

JD wrote: View Post
Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Whether it be by terrorism,or by government order there will be some strife if it becomes public that humans helped create the Borg with the Caeliar.
I don't know about Christopher, and the other people on this side of the argument, but I don't doubt that there will be problems. I just don't think everyone will immediately turn on humanity/the UFP.
I can see a "hey you owe us...Why? Cause you started this shit!". Basically putting political pressures on Earth (note: Earth, not the Federation) to come up reparations and political favors of some type. And in the process, Earth will loss some of its political influence, while newer members might rise up to political positions of prominence.

I doubt the sum of what Earth (re: humanity) has been behind, in terms of our junk coming back to bite the galaxy in the ass, has ever fully be divulged.
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Old December 3 2008, 10:49 PM   #254
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I still don't see how Earth is responsible for the creation of the Borg. Humans did not create the Borg on purpose. It is the Caeliar Sedin who was responsible for creating the Borg. The MACOS were victims just like any other drone. And the MACOS had every right to try to escape the Caeliar. They could not have known that their escape plan would backfire, sending the Caeliar ship back in time where they would become the first drones of an unstoppable enemy that would almost destroy the Federation thousands of years later.
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Old December 4 2008, 12:41 AM   #255
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
I still don't see how Earth is responsible for the creation of the Borg. Humans did not create the Borg on purpose. It is the Caeliar Sedin who was responsible for creating the Borg. The MACOS were victims just like any other drone. And the MACOS had every right to try to escape the Caeliar. They could not have known that their escape plan would backfire, sending the Caeliar ship back in time where they would become the first drones of an unstoppable enemy that would almost destroy the Federation thousands of years later.
It doesn't matter whether or not the MACOS were in teh right, or that the merging that lead to the Borg was an attempt to survive. All that matters, to the whips that whip the paranoid, frightened, masses of refugees and and survivors, is that humans were at the root of the creation of the Borg. There was a singular moment where humans could have chose to die and the Borg never been born. The Borg Queen was human. It was human captains-- Janeway and Picard-- that had a chances to wipe out the Borg and didn't. And when it all came to a end, it was humans that allowed the collective to be evolved by another human into a superior form of life, and escape prosecuetion and punishment for their actions.


Never let facts and get in the way of a good game of blame, or underestimate frothing, paniced, angry masses looking to punish someone for the cause of their suffering.
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