Destiny: Lost Souls by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[Silversmok3]

destro wrote:

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Now whether the other races in the galaxy will see it that way is a whole other box of self sealed stem bolts.

I can answer that real quick:They won't .

60 billion dead.

Think about that huge number while we eval the consequences of releasing the events (Omega particle and all)

Needless to say the Caeliar can't be reached for objective comment ,leaving the Federation to explain to a quadrant full of angry and hurt aliens that we were only partly responsible for making a genocidal army.

Who'd believe us?The declarations of war would be flying before poor Bacco could get off the podium.

And the Andorians,Denevians and Klingons would finish what the Borg started.No thanks.

To wit,if it got out via underground its so crazy no one would buy it .Humans making the Borg?A supernova,high tech aliens no ones heard of and a 200 year old Terran ship.Time to lay off the Romulan ale,eh!

[Sci]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Actually, I'd think the last thing the Federation - Earth, in particular - would need, is for hundreds or even thousands of Borg-victimized races to come banging on their front door looking for revenge. (You think Andorians, for example, would be all that happy about learning that a fellow member of the Federation was indirectly responsible for what happened to them?) If it takes a few secrets to stop that from happening, I'd call it even.

I think the Andorians are mature enough as a society to know better than to blame an entire species, and a loyal ally and partner in the Federation, for the actions of a few isolated individuals in the distant past.

And I also think that a secret that big cannot possibly be kept. And when the genie gets let out of that bag, the consequences will just be even worse. Better to be upfront and honest with everyone about the whole deal.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sci wrote:

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I think the Andorians are mature enough as a society to know better than to blame an entire species, and a loyal ally and partner in the Federation, for the actions of a few isolated individuals in the distant past.

We all know what Andorians are like. They are warlike, impetuous, hotheaded, and militaristic. Look at Shran, for example. Just think of what somebody like him would do if he were alive today and found out that humans, however accidentally, played a large part in what was essentially the destruction of his homeworld.

To put it another way: Look at how people like Archer and Trip reacted when they found out about the Xindi attack on Earth. And then multiply that by, oh, a hell of a lot. (Remember, the Xindi attack 'only' killed a few million people. And if humans can react with such rage and grief, how do you think *Andorians* would handle an attack that was much WORSE?)

And if you still need further convincing: Look at the lengths Section 31 went through to cover up the events in A Time To Kill/Heal. Do you think the Klingons should learn the truth about *that*?

Indeed, it might be much worse for the Klingons to find out about humanity's role in the creation of the Borg. I think it's fairly safe to say that more Klingons died at Borg hands than at Tezwa...and if Section 31 was as insistent on keeping the Klingons from finding out about some namby-pamby alien PM destroying a few Klingon ships, how do you think they would feel about letting the Klingons know about humanity being the origin of the Borg, who killed *millions* of Klingons? Somehow I doubt the Klingons would care that the Borg were an accident any more than the Andorians would, and probably a lot less. (We've all seen how little it takes to provoke a Klingon into fighting.)

[Sci]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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We all know what Andorians are like. They are warlike, impetuous, hotheaded, and militaristic.

Wow. Stereotype much?

They're also committed to sentient rights, the primacy of diplomacy over militarism, democracy, egalitarianism, and liberty, elsewise they wouldn't be part of the Federation.

Hell, on the Federation Council, the Tellarite Federation Councillor was much more aggressive than the Andorian one.

Look at Shran, for example. Just think of what somebody like him would do if he were alive today and found out that humans, however accidentally, played a large part in what was essentially the destruction of his homeworld.

Shran? You mean, the one who put aside his hatred of Vulcans to partner with them when he realized that doing so was in the interests of the greater good? The man who apologized for torturing a Vulcan and fought alongside them against the Romulans -- even after one Vulcan faction had attempted an invasion of his homeworld? That Shran?

I don't think he'd decide to start a Federation civil war and tear the UFP asunder, no.

And besides, Andor was not destroyed. We don't even know what the deathcount was -- we know it was significant, but we also know that it wasn't total.

To put it another way: Look at how people like Archer and Trip reacted when they found out about the Xindi attack on Earth.

As I recall, upon learning that the Xindi were being manipulated by the Sphere Builders, they put aside their anger and forged alliances with the Xindi factions that they realized were not mindlessly aggressive, eventually enlisting Xindi help to save their world and establish peace between their peoples.

And if you still need further convincing: Look at the lengths Section 31 went through to cover up the events in A Time To Kill/Heal. Do you think the Klingons should learn the truth about *that*?

Yes, actually. Or, rather, the Federation should have exposed Zife's criminal actions and then turned Zife, Azernal, and Quafina over to the Klingons for crimes against the Empire. It should be handled akin to how the Federation handled things in The Chimes At Midnight, the Myriad Universes tale in which

the Federation Admiral who ordered the destruction of Praxis voluntarily allowed himself to be extradited to the Klingon Empire so that the Federation at large would not be held responsible for his criminal choices.

Since they didn't do that, when the Klingons find out what happened -- and they will find out unless Tezwa was one of the worlds the Borg wiped out; Section 31 and Starfleet did not do a very good job of covering their tracks, especially given as how a Trill journalist discovered almost the whole truth -- it's just gonna be worse, because then the Klingons will be pissed at the Feds for lying to them on top of it all.

Indeed, it might be much worse for the Klingons to find out about humanity's role in the creation of the Borg. I think it's fairly safe to say that more Klingons died at Borg hands than at Tezwa...and if Section 31 was as insistent on keeping the Klingons from finding out about some namby-pamby alien PM destroying a few Klingon ships, how do you think they would feel about letting the Klingons know about humanity being the origin of the Borg, who killed *millions* of Klingons? Somehow I doubt the Klingons would care that the Borg were an accident any more than the Andorians would, and probably a lot less. (We've all seen how little it takes to provoke a Klingon into fighting.)

Again, I think you're over-simplifying how these guys think. Amongst other things, it's important to keep in mind that the Klingons would also respect the fact that billions of Humans would have also been killed by the Borg, and that thousands of Humans also died defending the Klingon Empire from the Borg threat. And, of course, it was Humans and Caeliar who also defeated the Borg once and for all.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sci wrote:

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Wow. Stereotype much?

They're also committed to sentient rights, the primacy of diplomacy over militarism, democracy, egalitarianism, and liberty, elsewise they wouldn't be part of the Federation.

But they don't stop *being* Andorians just because they are Federation members, do they?

And besides, Andor was not destroyed. We don't even know what the deathcount was -- we know it was significant, but we also know that it wasn't total.

And Earth itself didn't suffer anything even close to what happened to Kronos or Andor did.

As I recall, upon learning that the Xindi were being manipulated by the Sphere Builders, they put aside their anger and forged alliances with the Xindi factions that they realized were not mindlessly aggressive, eventually enlisting Xindi help to save their world and establish peace between their peoples.

That only came later. *At the time* of the attack, Archer, Trip and probably everyone else on Earth - let alone their own ship - wanted to wipe out the Xindi completely. And these are human beings, who are surely not as warlike and aggressive as Klingons or Andorians.

it's important to keep in mind that the Klingons would also respect the fact that billions of Humans would have also been killed by the Borg

Or they could simply regard it as payback. We've all seen how easily the Klingons will turn on the Federation (they went to war against each other *during the events of DS9*, after all, and that was for reasons much more trivial than Tezwa *or* a Borg attack). I don't see how different this is. Remember Narendra Three? In the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Klingons launched a devastating war against the Federation simply because the Enterprise-C *disappeared*!

[Sci]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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But they don't stop *being* Andorians just because they are Federation members, do they?

But they're not as warlike and militaristic as you're characterizing them as being.

That only came later. *At the time* of the attack, Archer, Trip and probably everyone else on Earth - let alone their own ship - wanted to wipe out the Xindi completely.

Yes, that's right -- Archer and Co. went from wanting to wipe the Xindi off the face of the Milky Way to wanting to forge a peaceful alliance with them because he learned about their culture and realized he couldn't just write them all off as monsters. And Andorians and Klingons have known Humanity for much longer and in much greater detail than the NX-01 crew did the Xindi.

What makes you think that the Andorians and Klingons -- species that have long histories of partnership with Humans, species that have fought and died beside Humans, one of which has actually yielding its independence to forge a political union with Humans -- would just betray Humanity because a few Humans and one Caeliar happen to have been the origin of the Borg? Why would they do that, especially knowing that the Borg have consistently targeted Humanity before any other species for enslavement or extermination? These are not societies that know nothing of Humanity. These are not societies for whom Humanity is a cypher or a mystery. They've bleed together, and they know the wonderful things Humanity has brought to the galaxy.

It's fair to say that public release of the Borg's origin will prompt sadness and controversy. But to suggest that the Klingons, a race that has seen Humans sacrifice for their numbers time and again, or that Andorians, a people who have united with Humanity in common egalitarian and libertarian purpose for centuries, would betray their friends and allies? It is absurd.

Or they could simply regard it as payback. We've all seen how easily the Klingons will turn on the Federation (they went to war against each other *during the events of DS9*, after all, and that was for reasons much more trivial than Tezwa *or* a Borg attack).

They went to war with the Federation because Chancellor Gowron was being manipulated by a Changeling into attacking the Cardassian Union and because Gowron regarded the Federation as a potential threat to his power base because of their refusal to support the invasion of Cardassian space. Martok is in charge now, and, in point of fact, there is no longer an effective High Council to push him in an anti-Federation direction -- the Klingon unilateralists, so to speak, are all dead now.

I don't see how different this is. Remember Narendra Three? In the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Klingons launched a devastating war against the Federation simply because the Enterprise-C *disappeared*!

You're severely over-simplifying. The Klingon unilateralist faction, which had always opposed the alliance with the Federation, had been, until Narendra III, stoking public sentiment against the Federation -- trying to play upon nationalistic pride to get Klingons to resent Federation aid and to feel resentful of and hostile to the UFP in the hopes of overthrowing the pro-alliance chancellors. In the "real" timeline, the Enterprise-C's sacrifice to save Klingon lives totally defeated the unilateralist faction's propaganda, generating admiration and sympathy for the Federation amongst the Klingons, thus preventing the unilateralists from eventually sundering the alliance and launching a war against the UFP. In that timeline, the lack of the Enterprise's sacrifice meant that the unilateralists' propaganda was never defeated.

[Silversmok3]

[QUOTE=Sci;2357895][QUOTE=Babaganoosh;2357645]

Sci wrote:

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And I also think that a secret that big cannot possibly be kept. And when the genie gets let out of that bag, the consequences will just be even worse. Better to be upfront and honest with everyone about the whole deal.

You make a fatal assumption that everyone will accept the truth at face value.

At Narendra 3,A destroyed starship stands as good evidence of our side of events .

With the Xindi,it took the efforts of an inter-temporal agent to reveal the truth.

And Shran's first meeting with Archer wasn't all that happy either.

The Caeliar won't be arround to corroborate our statement,and no culture will accept something outlandish like nearly being wiped out by a MISTAKE without demanding confirmation,or blood.

In the Klingon's case honor law may demand they go to war with the Federation.

And say it does get out.What journalist or alien is gonna ruin their crediblility by suggesting humanity,one of the Borg's favorite victims,was partly is creator?The bar/office/ship security will kick you out ,with a suggestion to lay off the bloodwine next time.

[Allyn Gibson]

SeerSGB wrote:

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As for the big revelation that humanity had a hand in the Borg's birth, yeah that's something that needs to be locked down big time. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of pissed off races going for humans.

There's a difference between what Picard, Riker, and Dax know, and what the three of them can prove.

There's no way for them -- or anyone, for that matter -- to prove Hernandez's statements about the relationship between the Borg and the Caeliar. To an outside observer, what happened at the end is very simple -- Hernandez and the Caeliar made the Borg go all glowy before they went away.

In short, I'm sure the debate about the nature and origins of the Borg will continue within the Federation and throughout the galaxy post-Destiny.

[Stephen!]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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And if you still need further convincing: Look at the lengths Section 31 went through to cover up the events in A Time To Kill/Heal. Do you think the Klingons should learn the truth about *that*?

Or the Romulans, if they happened to find out that they were manipulated into joining the Dominion war.

[casey]

I think it would be hard to keep something like this secret. There will be to many questions.

People will be asking what happened to the Borg, why the Caeliar will suddenly became invovled, who convinced them, etc. I just don't see how you could keep something the monumental secret.

But I guess we will see with the next few books.
I think the fall out from this will be as engaging as Destiny was.

[Marie1]

In a moment of totally rational logic, I decided that instead of working on the 7 papers due by tomorrow, I'd buy Lost Souls (yesterday) and read a few pages to give my brain a break (yes, I know I procrastinate here waaayyy to often).

But, after that wonderful scene in Gods of Night I think? In an LS thread, I'm assuming people have read the first two...

***SPOILER

Did the Borg take out the same Khitomer right off the bat in Lost Souls? Is it the same planet as the one I'm thinking of?


***

Thats not nice...

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sci wrote:

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What makes you think that the Andorians and Klingons -- species that have long histories of partnership with Humans, species that have fought and died beside Humans, one of which has actually yielding its independence to forge a political union with Humans -- would just betray Humanity because a few Humans and one Caeliar happen to have been the origin of the Borg? Why would they do that, especially knowing that the Borg have consistently targeted Humanity before any other species for enslavement or extermination?

Because these are species that love to fight. Especially in the Klingons' case - they will certainly look for *any* excuse, no matter how absurd it may seem to us, to fight. Their entire culture is based on it! They are warriors - that's all they do.

And as for the Andorians...remember the Andorian 'renegades' spoken of during at least one TNG episode?

These are not societies that know nothing of Humanity. These are not societies for whom Humanity is a cypher or a mystery. They've bleed together, and they know the wonderful things Humanity has brought to the galaxy.

Of course they know a lot about humans. But the question is, given this new revelation, would they *care*?

You're severely over-simplifying. The Klingon unilateralist faction, which had always opposed the alliance with the Federation, had been, until Narendra III, stoking public sentiment against the Federation -- trying to play upon nationalistic pride to get Klingons to resent Federation aid and to feel resentful of and hostile to the UFP in the hopes of overthrowing the pro-alliance chancellors. In the "real" timeline, the Enterprise-C's sacrifice to save Klingon lives totally defeated the unilateralist faction's propaganda, generating admiration and sympathy for the Federation amongst the Klingons, thus preventing the unilateralists from eventually sundering the alliance and launching a war against the UFP. In that timeline, the lack of the Enterprise's sacrifice meant that the unilateralists' propaganda was never defeated.

Where do you get all this stuff about 'unilateralists' and 'factions'?

I agree with you about Martok, though. He's probably the reason the Klingons aren't on the march against the UFP right now. He is, I assume, still on friendly terms with humanity (although who's to say how *he* might react if he finds out the truth about the Borg?).

[DGCatAniSiri]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Because these are species that love to fight. Especially in the Klingons' case - they will certainly look for *any* excuse, no matter how absurd it may seem to us, to fight. Their entire culture is based on it! They are warriors - that's all they do.

THAT is a gross oversimplification of the Klingon race. Yes, most of the Klingons we see do love to engage in combat - Klingons are a durable race. More importantly, though, anyone outside the empire usually sees just the warriors, not the farmers, actors, thinkers, etc. of the Klingon race.

The Klingons have in the past been beaten down and they stop with the warfare long enough to pick up the pieces and rebuild. They did this after Praxis, and the Chancellor then was much like Martok in the matter of his respect for humanity.

At this point, I think even the most violent and outspoken species are more concerned with licking their wounds than entering into another costly war. Every one has taken heavy blows here.

And, on top of that, how CAN they punish anyone? Okay, so the Tholians can hold a grudge for multiple centuries. But what happened with the Solumbia crewmen and Sedin was both three centuries and six plus millennia ago. Yes, the 'blame' can be traced back to the Columbia mutineers, but if you're going to backtrack that far back, why not just blame the Romulans for launching the attack on the Columbia in the first place?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

DGCatAniSiri wrote:

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And, on top of that, how CAN they punish anyone? Okay, so the Tholians can hold a grudge for multiple centuries. But what happened with the Solumbia crewmen and Sedin was both three centuries and six plus millennia ago.

True, but I doubt the Tholians are the only race that can hold a grudge.

Yes, the 'blame' can be traced back to the Columbia mutineers, but if you're going to backtrack that far back, why not just blame the Romulans for launching the attack on the Columbia in the first place?

Because the Romulans didn't create the Borg.

[JD]

I have a question for the people who think a big war will begin when the truth behind the Borg's origins is revealed, did everyone immediately turn on the Vulcan's when they found out they were responsible for the Romulans?