RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,601
Posts: 5,424,742
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 403
Newest member: David Ellerman

TrekToday headlines

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 11 2008, 03:11 AM   #1
RobertScorpio
Pariah
 
Location: San Diego
Genesis of Genesis

What was the Federation thinking even considering the Genesis project? They had to know, even from the early testing, that is could have been perverted into a weapon....They had to know that if used as a weapon it would have been a very powerful one, on different than the weapon Shinzon had in Nemesis...(genesis--Nemesis)...

Genesis was a bad idea. Yeah, giving life to dead moons for food/population concerns was good...but doing it with out Klingon/Romulan knowledge was just wrong headed..

Rob
RobertScorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 06:32 AM   #2
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Genesis of Genesis

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
doing it with out Klingon/Romulan knowledge was just wrong headed.
Federation scientists resolving terraforming issues must consult with enemy races before proceeding?
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 06:47 AM   #3
RobertScorpio
Pariah
 
Location: San Diego
Re: Genesis of Genesis

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
doing it with out Klingon/Romulan knowledge was just wrong headed.
Federation scientists resolving terraforming issues must consult with enemy races before proceeding?
Obviously the Klingons had issues with it. It would be like the USA working on some device that could turn useless deserts into grass fields with tons of water. But could also be used to wipe out any living beings to set up its own matrix...I could see Russia/China being kind of worried about a something like that. It could easily be used as a first strike weapon. Would you trust this device with someone like Obama? Maybe. But what if someone like George Bush became president again...trust him? Cheney? Not me...

I think the Genesis Project had great intentions. But I could easily see it used as a weapon, just as David Marcus was worried about...you know..over grown boy scouts..



Rob
RobertScorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 06:56 AM   #4
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Genesis of Genesis

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
I could see Russia/China being kind of worried about a something like that.
Did NASA reveal all to the Soviets about the race to the moon from Apollo's side?

Did the US government ask first before developing F-111s? Stealth bombers?

Did US get asked permission for Chernobyl's nuclear power plant to go ahead?

Did Japan get advance plans for the Hiroshima bomb blast?
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 11:51 AM   #5
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Genesis of Genesis

...It might be argued that it would have been a splendid idea to brief the Japanese about the Hiroshima bombing in advance.

Similarly, developing Genesis in bright public light (and thus under heavy military protection rather than risky secretive isolation) could have served propagandist purposes. "Why, it never occurred to us that our nifty and completely peaceful planet-maker here could make short work of the entire Klingon Empire if applied in anger. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Now, didn't we have some uncertainty about the ownership of the Archanis system? Please sit down and let's negotiate. Perhaps you would like one of our newly made habitable planets in exchange? In fact, I'm sure you would be happy to make the little swap."

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 04:31 PM   #6
blueziggy
Lieutenant
 
Re: Genesis of Genesis

my take on it. some of the worst inventions in history have lead to some of the greatest advancements of our time. rocketry is just one of them. rockets were first designed to deliver payloads of explosives over long distances. at some point someone said "hey lets attach these to a place where we can put people and shoot them up into outer space". this is just one example. the reverse is also true. some of the best inventions / discoveries have lead to disgusting advances too. advances in medicine have lead to bio weapons.

do these examples mean we should stop exploring space or making advances in medicine? hell no. just hope that those of sound mind and morality are in charge of where we as a people implement these discoveries.
blueziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2008, 11:44 PM   #7
RobertScorpio
Pariah
 
Location: San Diego
Re: Genesis of Genesis

blueziggy wrote: View Post
my take on it. some of the worst inventions in history have lead to some of the greatest advancements of our time. rocketry is just one of them. rockets were first designed to deliver payloads of explosives over long distances. at some point someone said "hey lets attach these to a place where we can put people and shoot them up into outer space". this is just one example. the reverse is also true. some of the best inventions / discoveries have lead to disgusting advances too. advances in medicine have lead to bio weapons.

do these examples mean we should stop exploring space or making advances in medicine? hell no. just hope that those of sound mind and morality are in charge of where we as a people implement these discoveries.
The Genesis device will destroy all live in order to create its new matrix. I would have had no problem with the device had the Federation been more open about what they were doing...the fact they did it in secret, with Starfleet's knowledge, is where I have problems with this program.

And why not reveal it from the start if its soul purpose was to create life from lifeless worlds? That is a good thing, isn't it? Why the secrecy at all???

Rob
RobertScorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 01:03 AM   #8
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Genesis of Genesis

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
That is a good thing, isn't it? Why the secrecy at all???
Because it's not tested. They had only done stage 1 and 2 by the time Kirk showed up, so if they had gone public with such a device it would've been a PR nightmare if it hadn't worked ("we're inventing this device that can revolutionise food and water shortages- oh wait, I've just been told it doesn't work"). Imagine if the US did they, they'd be laughed off the planet by the Russians, Chinese, etc.

And so what if it's used as a weapon? Remember the Federation/Klingon relationship had never been one of peaches and cream; should the need arise to wipe the Klingons out - not that such a need would EVER rear it's head - then the Genesis device is a perfect weapon to use.

I wonder what would happen if it were fired into a star...?
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 02:33 AM   #9
Red Ranger
Admiral
 
Red Ranger's Avatar
 
Location: New York City, the greatest city in the world!
Re: Genesis of Genesis

People,

Given the paranoid nature of the Klingons and Romulans, it's understandable that they would make the argument, as the Klingon ambassador in TVH does, that Genesis would be used, "to launch the annihilation of the Klingon people!" There's an old Spanish saying, loosely translated, which goes, "The thief applies his own morality to all others."

Meaning that probably if the Klingons could have developed the Genesis torpedo, they would have had no qualms using it to rearrange the surface of Federation colonies, like the neutron bomb. So since some in the Empire felt that way, they assumed Starfleet and the Federation had similar plans. The secrecy of the project fed into their paranoia.

I have to agree with those of you who can't see how the Federation could have alerted their enemies about the project before they were sure it worked -- and as we saw, David Marcus's protomatter short-cut ensured it wouldn't over the long-term, although that wasn't his goal.

Red Ranger
__________________
"I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!"

"I would make this war as severe as possible, and show no symptoms of tiring till the South begs for mercy." -- William Tecumseh Sherman
Red Ranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 02:38 AM   #10
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Genesis of Genesis

It's ironic that such a device would've been an extremely handy post-TUC in dealing with a dying Kronos...
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 03:46 AM   #11
Silversmok3
Commander
 
Silversmok3's Avatar
 
Re: Genesis of Genesis

Lets backtrack for a moment.

Genesis was a classified project.No one outside of Starfleet's top brass was authorized to know about it.

So clearly the Federation didn't give a quark about Klingon or Romulan opinion.

As Genesis was classified, and taking place within Federation territory,the project was engineered in total secrecy, and would have happily progressed from the lab, to the underground on Regulus, to the acutal live test somewhere in the Federation's boonies without anyone the wiser.

That is , until Khan fubared everything.

Proving the saw that one idiot can undo the work of geniouses,his crimes and the theft +detonation of Genesis sounded a galactic bullhorn on the whole affair.

After all, it is somewhat difficult to cover up the deaths of hundreds of people ( some of which are Starfleet personell), the marooning of the Reliants crew,the eventual destruction of Reliant and the parade finish of a proto-planet existing where a nebula should be .
__________________
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under Heaven:A time to heal, A time to break down, and a time to build up.
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
Silversmok3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 04:48 AM   #12
RobertScorpio
Pariah
 
Location: San Diego
Re: Genesis of Genesis

The Federation should never have done this project in secret, even if their goal was the peaceful use of the Genesis Torpedo.

What if war had broken out between the Klingons/Federation before knowledge of the Genesis Device became public domain. And what if that war was going badly for the Federation. Do you think that for one moment the Federation, with secret groups like Section-31 in the background, wouldn't had used it? Sure they would have.

Perhaps there were galatic laws banning such projects, and that is why it was done in secret. And if the argument was they did it in secret so the Klingons wouldn't know, or the Romulans, then it calls into serious doubt what Starfleet was intending all along..

I side with the Klingons on this one...Starfleet intentions (including the mysterious destruction of ceti-alpha 6) are not always good..

Rob
RobertScorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 04:54 AM   #13
RobertScorpio
Pariah
 
Location: San Diego
Re: Genesis of Genesis

Candlelight wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
That is a good thing, isn't it? Why the secrecy at all???
And so what if it's used as a weapon? Remember the Federation/Klingon relationship had never been one of peaches and cream; should the need arise to wipe the Klingons out - not that such a need would EVER rear it's head - then the Genesis device is a perfect weapon to use.
You make my point for me. I actually believe you are right. Starfleet was intending to use it as a weapon, if need be. And they used Carol Marcus. And if so? Then the Klingons are justified in not only destroying the Grissom, but also, in my mind, killing those who created it.

Spock warned Mccoy that it 'is always easier to destory than create.' His is right. In one movie they not only destroyed a world, but also destroyed the so called peaceful intent of Starfleet..

Rob
RobertScorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2008, 03:54 PM   #14
Silversmok3
Commander
 
Silversmok3's Avatar
 
Re: Genesis of Genesis

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Candlelight wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
That is a good thing, isn't it? Why the secrecy at all???
And so what if it's used as a weapon? Remember the Federation/Klingon relationship had never been one of peaches and cream; should the need arise to wipe the Klingons out - not that such a need would EVER rear it's head - then the Genesis device is a perfect weapon to use.
You make my point for me. I actually believe you are right. Starfleet was intending to use it as a weapon, if need be. And they used Carol Marcus. And if so? Then the Klingons are justified in not only destroying the Grissom, but also, in my mind, killing those who created it.

Spock warned Mccoy that it 'is always easier to destory than create.' His is right. In one movie they not only destroyed a world, but also destroyed the so called peaceful intent of Starfleet..

Rob
I dont think so. If starfleet wanted Genesis as a weapon civilian scientists wouldn't be anywhere near the thing.

The elaborate testing to ensure that an ecosystem was created (AKA the underground) wouldnt make sense, as it(genesis) would just be to wipe out everything, right?

The reason its classified is so that the Romulans, Klingons, or ther bad guys couldn't steal the plans and make their own Genesis torpedo. And while starfleet may use the thing in a wartime emergency ( like a Borg invasion) ,the Romulans and Klingons would broker no debate in using it in their own wars.Possibly against the Federation itself.
__________________
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under Heaven:A time to heal, A time to break down, and a time to build up.
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
Silversmok3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2008, 03:22 AM   #15
Candlelight
Admiral
 
Candlelight's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: Genesis of Genesis

Maybe Section 31 had something to do with it's inception.
Candlelight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.