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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 31 2008, 09:44 AM   #316
Timo
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

The evidence we are lacking is the one that establishes the ability of people outside to see in through this thing. Until we get that, this isn't a window yet. It could still be a simple TV screen, with no corresponding opening on the outer surface.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 31 2008, 10:31 AM   #317
Therin of Andor
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

davejames wrote: View Post
Would it really have killed them to put Kirk in a gold uniform for the promotional pics?
The pic was deliberately staged that way to frustrate you. Ditto Spock not being in the group shot.

We wanted people to yearn to anticipate this film. So the trick works.
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Old October 31 2008, 11:43 AM   #318
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
JJ Abrams
"For me, the costumes were a microcosm of the entire project, which was how to take something that's kind of silly and make it feel real. But how do you make legitimate those near-primary colour costumes? How do you make legitimate the pointy ears and the bowl haircut? It's ridiculous and as potentially cliched as it gets. How do you watch Galaxy Quest and then go make a Star Trek movie?"
With this attitude, he shouldn't have been let anywhere near Star Trek.

Next time, they need to get Richard Donner.
Agreed. Comments like this tend to make Abrams sound very arrogant. Fans were up in arms when B&B were saying things like this when ENT premiered, yet Abrams gets a 'get out of jail free' card? Werid.
And he apparently considers Star Wars--which is downright juvenile compared to Star Trek, which is itself adolescent--the standard to which he should aspire. I could see this kind of talk coming from someone who seeks to emulate the giants of litSF--the Stanislaw Lems, the Frank Herberts, the Arthur C. Clarkes, the Kim Stanley Robinsons or William Gibsons--but from this guy? Looks like the chimps are winding up for the pitch. I suggest we duck.
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Old October 31 2008, 12:39 PM   #319
GodThingFormerly
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
And he apparently considers Star Wars--which is downright juvenile compared to Star Trek, which is itself adolescent--the standard to which he should aspire.
Gene Roddenberry and Robert Wise were quite open about their MediaSF inspiration when the latter signed on to direct ST:TMP:



Their reach may have to a certain extent exceeded their grasp, but in the immediate terrible aftermath of the Star Wars disaster Roddenberry & Wise at the very least attempted to keep Star Trek in contact with its conceptual and stylistic roots.

TGT
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Old October 31 2008, 01:29 PM   #320
ROBE
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

The rank system was actually amended for ST:TMP. They did away with the Lt(Jg) rank and gave ensigns the broken gold stripe, they also gave CPOs square and POs triangle insignia.
After this they redesigned the uniforms and insignia and had proper rank insignia for officers and ratings.
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Old October 31 2008, 03:37 PM   #321
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

The God Thing wrote: View Post
GilmourD wrote: View Post
You can tell that from the pic in what you quoted? I really don't think there's enough detail there to tell.
They are ridged pipes attached to flat panels mounted on spacecraft components that presumably generate by far the greatest amount of waste heat when operating. What else could they be?

TGT
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)

Some of you may have built your own computers, and maybe even used some cooling components with "heat pipe" type phase-change heat transfer elements. That's effectively what the 1701's engines had near the aft, and on the inboard face (what FJ eventually referred to as "the control reactor" and the "intercoolers"). He also had simple radiator panels on the pylons, near the aft on either side, and wrapping around the aftmost "exhaust cone" region (I've always assumed that for the series ship, the warp effect was generated in the little spheres at the aft end of the nacelles).

I LOVE those engines. They just make sense from an engineer's perspective. I never cared as much for the TMP-era engines (too "decorative" and not as functional in appearance). The early TNG-era nacelles were a little better (Probert's influence) but fell away into "cool blue and red LED lighting" pretty rapidly. The TOS nacelles are still, by far, my favorite.

What I've seen, so far, of the nacelles in this film (albeit I think we saw the Kelvin's nacelles, not the Enterprises, in the trailer!) seems more "style" and less "substance."

*****

On a slightly different point... I'm not 100% convinced that we're looking at a window on the bridge (though I'll admit it seems likely). There's just as much logic to assuming that we're looking at a holographic display as there is that it's a window. If it is, in fact, a "big freakin' window" that just illustrates, to me, that the set is being designed by folks who are thinking more about "how cool things look" than about "does this make sense?"

If it's a window... how do you change the magnification levels? Or the angle of viewing? Or the "signal processing?" In space travel terms, you're almost never REALLY close enough to see what you're nearby... even with the simple orbital space travel we do today. In interstellar-travel terms... a window really is useless, isn't it? And in real terms, space is generally really really dark... except when it's really, really bright. To have visually useful information, you need to process the information being brought in to better match the range of sensitivity of the human eye (or "vulcan eye?")

So a window may be nice for "casual viewing" purposes but for the operation of a space vessel... not so much.
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Old October 31 2008, 04:00 PM   #322
ST-One
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
If it's a window... how do you change the magnification levels? Or the angle of viewing? Or the "signal processing?" In space travel terms, you're almost never REALLY close enough to see what you're nearby... even with the simple orbital space travel we do today. In interstellar-travel terms... a window really is useless, isn't it? And in real terms, space is generally really really dark... except when it's really, really bright. To have visually useful information, you need to process the information being brought in to better match the range of sensitivity of the human eye (or "vulcan eye?")

So a window may be nice for "casual viewing" purposes but for the operation of a space vessel... not so much.
The main viewer itself is also pretty much useless (except for eye-candy).

But, as the pictures show, they very obviously can project displays on that window. So I'd guess they can also project the image the sensors record onto it.
But for the ship's operations the crew would use the monitors and displays on their own stations instead of the main-viewer anyway.
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Old October 31 2008, 04:18 PM   #323
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

ST-One wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
If it's a window... how do you change the magnification levels? Or the angle of viewing? Or the "signal processing?" In space travel terms, you're almost never REALLY close enough to see what you're nearby... even with the simple orbital space travel we do today. In interstellar-travel terms... a window really is useless, isn't it? And in real terms, space is generally really really dark... except when it's really, really bright. To have visually useful information, you need to process the information being brought in to better match the range of sensitivity of the human eye (or "vulcan eye?")

So a window may be nice for "casual viewing" purposes but for the operation of a space vessel... not so much.
The main viewer itself is also pretty much useless (except for eye-candy).
I don't know if you've looked at the "how would you redesign the bridge if you started from scratch" thread in Trek Tech... but I've talked about that, so I do agree with you.

The short form... the front of the bridge would be made up of three different main display elements... a holographic "navigation tank" (which would be what would be watched most often), a large ships' status display board (in lieu of any "engineering station" on the bridge!) and a visual display. And the navigation tank and status display would be far more useful than the main visual display under most circumstances.

I'm just sayin' that a display has some uses... a window has almost none, except to "look cool."
But, as the pictures show, they very obviously can project displays on that window. So I'd guess they can also project the image the sensors record onto it.
Yep, quite true. The images seem to be transparent, but hopefully they'd be able to go fully-opaque. In which case, the functionality of this as a window is pretty much a non-issue. (If they're always transparent... image "ghosting" would make it essentially useless.)
But for the ship's operations the crew would use the monitors and displays on their own stations instead of the main-viewer anyway.
Agreed. Only the helmsman and the captain would really have reason to have their eyes glued to the main display... and the helmsman typically less so than the captain.

But I can see lots of functional purposes for a dedicated visual display, but very few for a big honkin' window.
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Old October 31 2008, 04:42 PM   #324
Sheridan
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)
I'm not fully convinced that the fins on the warp engines are purely for style. Maybe they still serve the same function as the pipes(the ones at the end of the warp engines on TOS Enterprise) or the pipes are within the fins for protection.
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Old October 31 2008, 06:12 PM   #325
GilmourD
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Sheridan wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)
I'm not fully convinced that the fins on the warp engines are purely for style. Maybe they still serve the same function as the pipes(the ones at the end of the warp engines on TOS Enterprise) or the pipes are within the fins for protection.
It's plausible. As a PC tech, I've seen some interesting heatsinks in my time.
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Old October 31 2008, 06:32 PM   #326
Red Ranger
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Sheridan wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)
I'm not fully convinced that the fins on the warp engines are purely for style. Maybe they still serve the same function as the pipes(the ones at the end of the warp engines on TOS Enterprise) or the pipes are within the fins for protection.
Nah, the fins are for style. Like a '57 Chevy! Pimp my starship! -- RR
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Old October 31 2008, 07:48 PM   #327
M'Sharak
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Sheridan wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)
I'm not fully convinced that the fins on the warp engines are purely for style. Maybe they still serve the same function as the pipes(the ones at the end of the warp engines on TOS Enterprise) or the pipes are within the fins for protection.
The "fins" acting as a sort of cowling or shroud for the heat-pipe radiators TGT describes here?

In an environment where aerodynamics really aren't a factor, I'm not sure I see a need for anything like that, but I'll admit I haven't given it a great deal of thought. Perhaps someone here will be able to come up with a plausible in-universe explanation.
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Old October 31 2008, 07:57 PM   #328
Sheridan
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

If the fins really are covering up the pipes then wouldn't that mean that they're just taking Jefferie's original concept of an extremely smooth and simple exterior one step further?
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Old October 31 2008, 07:59 PM   #329
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Sheridan wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct. Jeffries' design incorporated elements which made sense, and very few gave us the appearance of being "just for style." The 1701 didn't have "fins" but it did have a number of heat-management details, particularly on the engines, which make great technical sense (although to be practical, with currently-existing levels of technology, they'd really need to be much larger!)
I'm not fully convinced that the fins on the warp engines are purely for style. Maybe they still serve the same function as the pipes(the ones at the end of the warp engines on TOS Enterprise) or the pipes are within the fins for protection.
Nah, the fins are for style. Like a '57 Chevy! Pimp my starship! -- RR
To be honest, that's exactly what I see when I'm seeing that sort of detail. Not a "functional mechanical/technological" element, but rather something like the huge fins on old cars. Heck, they even look like that sort of fin.

It's amusing to watch styles go through cycles, isn't it? Like how it's all the rage today to have stainless-steel appliances... something that was also all the rage back in the 1940s.

Anytime you do something just for style, it's inevitably going to look dated in just a few years. Just for example... during the 1970s, you couldn't have done a show with people having short-cropped hair without people thinking that looked anachronistic and goofy... after all, "fluffy, feathered hair" was how "modern" people do it.
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Old November 1 2008, 12:03 AM   #330
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Empire Magazine pics!

The God Thing wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
And he apparently considers Star Wars--which is downright juvenile compared to Star Trek, which is itself adolescent--the standard to which he should aspire.
Gene Roddenberry and Robert Wise were quite open about their MediaSF inspiration when the latter signed on to direct ST:TMP:



Their reach may have to a certain extent exceeded their grasp, but in the immediate terrible aftermath of the Star Wars disaster Roddenberry & Wise at the very least attempted to keep Star Trek in contact with its conceptual and stylistic roots.

TGT
Hardly surprising, considering how GR sought out the input--both in the form of scripts and background advice--of many litSF luminaries in order to craft a pardigm shifting show that would treat SF not as kiddie adventure but adult drama. It's easy to forget now--the glowing, gambling brains and hissing lizard men can do that--just how revolutionary that was.

Of course, the kids were welcome to watch, too. But, as a kid, I always felt more grown-up for doing so. Certainly, TMP did more for my growing intellect than any of the Star Wars movies did, as much as I liked them--the first two, at least; I knew at age 13 that Jedi was total shit. Abrams himself said how the smart kids liked Trek while he preferred Star Wars for its more "visceral" appeal.

Note, too, how Star Trek took its cue from the most cerebral science fiction film of the previous decade, Forbidden Planet, which put a nakedly Freudian gloss on Shakespeare among the rinky-dink trappings of a fifties monster movie, just as you show TMP taking its cue from 2001. Now we have Abrams--the creator of Felicity--comparing TOS to the amusing but tonally inaccurate show-within-the-movie Galaxy Quest (which even head cheerleader Starship Polaris has said bore more resemblance to late season Buck Rogers in the 25th Century than TOS) and thus, with his superior sophistication, promising to Star Wars it up for us.

We're supposed to think this a good thing?
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