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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals"
Excellent 98 77.78%
Above Average 15 11.90%
Average 10 7.94%
Below Average 1 0.79%
Poor 2 1.59%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 25 2008, 09:09 PM   #211
Trent Roman
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
By the way, I disagree with it that Picard “had” to kill Borg assimilated members of his own crew because they are better off dead. This is what he believed. Picard never gained the full knowledge of the Borg when he was assimilated.
I don't think it has anything to do with knowledge, but rather this own emotional trauma, aggressively projected onto other assimilated crew--as Lily Sloane quite rightly called him out on.

Voyager is full of contradictions but I don`t see what happened in Enterprise as retconning history. It wouldn`t surprise me if there are other earlier appearances of the Borg that never made it into any history books.
Yep. The whole thing with the Raven and the Hansen parents made no sense to me, but ENT was actually pretty careful not to contradict continuity in their Borg episode, whose premise did logically stem from First Contact. (Unlike, say, the Ferengi episode)

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Old November 25 2008, 11:21 PM   #212
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
By the way, I disagree with it that Picard “had” to kill Borg assimilated members of his own crew because they are better off dead. This is what he believed. Picard never gained the full knowledge of the Borg when he was assimilated.
I don't think it has anything to do with knowledge, but rather this own emotional trauma, aggressively projected onto other assimilated crew--as Lily Sloane quite rightly called him out on.

Hm, I think it is both.
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Old November 26 2008, 12:17 AM   #213
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

^^Well, let's keep in mind that Picard was in a situation where he didn't exactly have the luxury of trying to save his assimilated crew. They had become an immediate threat to him, to the ship, and to the Federation, and it was necessary for him to use force to stop them -- just as Riker was willing to kill Picard at the end of BOBW Pt. 1.
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Old November 26 2008, 01:11 AM   #214
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

^ I wouldn't argue with that at all. It's the 'better off dead' part of his reasoning, that he was doing them a favour by killing them, which I would take issue with as being an emotive rather than rational response.

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Old November 26 2008, 07:30 AM   #215
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
No, he's making plenty of sense, and I like the Borg fine. The list of good Borg stories you offer is revealing: the Borg play a tangential role in some of them, or some weird new angle on the Borg is introduced. They aren't an inherently workable long-term alien antagonist in the way of most other Trek baddies.
It is in the nature of Borg storytelling for them to be weird. That's the point. The Borg have never been used as a long-term alien antagonist, so your point is flawed. The complaints that I've been reading for YEARS on end are made as though we see the Borg in every episode and in every book. Every Borg episode was spread ridiculously far apart, until we get to Season 6 & 7 of Voyager where their presence was necessitated due to Voyager being in their homequadrant.

Trek in general has always shown Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Cardassians and Ferengi endlessly with all relatively behaving exactly the same as though all members of these alien species share the same minds.

I think your complaints stem from the Borg being too powerful. The same issue resides with the Q.

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
Sure they could. More or less since the Borg were introduced the writers of TV, film, and tie-ins had been ignoring the obvious fact that even a small fraction of the Borg strength could wipe out the Alpha Quadrant. It's nice that the fiction has now chosen to address that, but it's not like Star Trek from 1990 to 2008 somehow falls apart because the Borg were used selectively.
Who says it would fall apart? It just wouldn't be satisfying. Just like it's not satisfying to ignore the events of TNG's "Conspiracy," or to not have the Hirogen simulate Wolfe 359 instead of some rudimentary 17th Century war then mention simulating Wolfe 359 in said episode.

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
Thanks. I thought the Borg were great early on. But it became obvious that the writers ran out of ways to use the Borg as Borg, and had to make drastic changes to keep using them -- take a single Borg out of the collective, take a few Borg out of the collective, take another Borg out of the collective, etc.

It rarely felt like we were learning more about the Borg, it felt like the Borg were being changed so the writers could do something new with them.
  • The Borg are a species who have their own children in "Q Who," even if the babies aren't the result of basic sexual reproduction. Later they seem mainly to be assimilated from other species.
  • Jean-Luc Picard survives assimilation and is almost always shown living a pretty good post-Borg life -- but he has to kill Borg-assimiliated members of his own crew in First Contact because (unlike him) they're better off dead.
  • The Borg are a collective with no individuality who need Locutus to speak for them. Except that they have a queen who can speak for them.
  • Humans first encounter the Borg in "Q Who." But that's retconned on Voyager to several years earlier, and then retconned on Enterprise to centuries earlier.
I don't think you're being fair at all. You say you're bored with the Borg, but when the writers give you a unique Borg story, you cry foul. You can't have it both ways. It's no wonder the writers are pulling their hair out trying to satisfy us.

Your entire bulleted list is a testament of the entire history of Trek storytelling. You can't just pick and choose inconsistencies in order to highlight your accusations against a single race of characters, because your point applies to the whole entire Trek universe. I'm not even going to create my own bulleted list, because as a fan, you know I'm right.

I'm curious and so now I pose a question to the naysayers. You are the writer. Now summarize an acceptable Borg history for Star Trek, starting with "The Neutral Zone" and ending with Voyager. This... I've got to see.

FYI: In "The Neutral Zone," the Borg assimilated both Federation and Romulan outposts and then inexplicably reversed course to the Delta Quadrant.
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Old November 26 2008, 03:18 PM   #216
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Sorry, but we wouldn't be allowed to do that because of the boards no story ideas rule.
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Old November 26 2008, 04:10 PM   #217
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
I don't think you're being fair at all. You say you're bored with the Borg, but when the writers give you a unique Borg story, you cry foul. You can't have it both ways.
Either you're completely missing the points I'm trying to make or I'm incapable of expressing myself clearly. Either way, I'm done.
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Old November 26 2008, 05:28 PM   #218
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
I'm curious and so now I pose a question to the naysayers. You are the writer. Now summarize an acceptable Borg history for Star Trek, starting with "The Neutral Zone" and ending with Voyager. This... I've got to see.
JD wrote: View Post
Sorry, but we wouldn't be allowed to do that because of the boards no story ideas rule.
Indeed.

Luminus, it's a rule exclusive to the Trek Lit area of the board due to the number of Trek authors we have posting here. And there are legal concerns etc, that make it best to not have people posting story ideas here.
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Old November 26 2008, 06:10 PM   #219
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
I'm curious and so now I pose a question to the naysayers. You are the writer. Now summarize an acceptable Borg history for Star Trek, starting with "The Neutral Zone" and ending with Voyager. This... I've got to see.
And you will, next year, in the Star Trek Magazine. A piece that will be far more than acceptable, I sincerely hope and expect (and won't pay exorbitant sums of money for unless it is!!)

The writer, whose identity I'll keep quiet for now, is briefed to cover all Borg appearances - including their alternate origins in comics and the Shatnerverse - so I'll be very interested in everyone's (but particularly Luminus') opinion

Paul
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Old November 26 2008, 07:00 PM   #220
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

A Borg version of Q&A? That sounds cool.
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Old November 26 2008, 07:26 PM   #221
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

JAG wrote: View Post
A Borg version of Q&A? That sounds cool.
Sort of... but it'll be "factual" rather than a new story.
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Old November 26 2008, 08:33 PM   #222
Luminus
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

JD wrote: View Post
Sorry, but we wouldn't be allowed to do that because of the boards no story ideas rule.
Well that sucks.

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
Either you're completely missing the points I'm trying to make or I'm incapable of expressing myself clearly. Either way, I'm done.
You've GOT to be kidding me. I'm disagreeing with your position on a message board and because you can't convert me, you get upset and run away. What a joke. Good riddance.

PaulSimpson wrote: View Post
And you will, next year, in the Star Trek Magazine. A piece that will be far more than acceptable, I sincerely hope and expect (and won't pay exorbitant sums of money for unless it is!!)

The writer, whose identity I'll keep quiet for now, is briefed to cover all Borg appearances - including their alternate origins in comics and the Shatnerverse - so I'll be very interested in everyone's (but particularly Luminus') opinion

Paul
Fantastic!
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Old November 26 2008, 09:54 PM   #223
JD
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

PaulSimpson wrote: View Post
Luminus wrote: View Post
I'm curious and so now I pose a question to the naysayers. You are the writer. Now summarize an acceptable Borg history for Star Trek, starting with "The Neutral Zone" and ending with Voyager. This... I've got to see.
And you will, next year, in the Star Trek Magazine. A piece that will be far more than acceptable, I sincerely hope and expect (and won't pay exorbitant sums of money for unless it is!!)

The writer, whose identity I'll keep quiet for now, is briefed to cover all Borg appearances - including their alternate origins in comics and the Shatnerverse - so I'll be very interested in everyone's (but particularly Luminus') opinion

Paul
What about the Destiny origin, will that be included? Or is it to new at this point?
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Old November 26 2008, 10:18 PM   #224
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

JD wrote: View Post
And you will, next year, in the Star Trek Magazine. A piece that will be far more than acceptable, I sincerely hope and expect (and won't pay exorbitant sums of money for unless it is!!)

The writer, whose identity I'll keep quiet for now, is briefed to cover all Borg appearances - including their alternate origins in comics and the Shatnerverse - so I'll be very interested in everyone's (but particularly Luminus') opinion
Where did you get this information?
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Old November 26 2008, 10:25 PM   #225
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
You've GOT to be kidding me. I'm disagreeing with your position on a message board and because you can't convert me, you get upset and run away. What a joke. Good riddance.
Well, isn't that special.
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