RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,852
Posts: 5,328,223
Members: 24,552
Currently online: 749
Newest member: SpammetySpam

TrekToday headlines

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals"
Excellent 97 77.60%
Above Average 15 12.00%
Average 10 8.00%
Below Average 1 0.80%
Poor 2 1.60%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 24 2008, 06:51 PM   #196
Luminus
Fleet Captain
 
Luminus's Avatar
 
Location: The Singularity
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Luminus wrote: View Post
I'm also really liking this Captain Dax all the sudden. With everything going to hell, she basically told Picard that she was going to head straight into the worst of it and go after the Borg Queen and he can try and keep up. Pretty badass.
Pretty stupid, you mean. There's nothing badass about taking a rusty knife to a machine gun fight.
"Rusty knife?" What are you talking about? The Aventine is Starfleet's most advanced vessel, even more so than Titan and considerably more so than Enterprise. It's a test bed for prototype technologies nobody else has. It's also a large ship, smaller than Enterprise but considerably bigger than Titan (at least going by its crew capacity, which is twice Titan's).
And it's just been put through the ringer in that fight against the Hirogen, hence the "rusty knife" comment. They don't even have full shields. 40 heavily armed ships can't stop a single cube, yet she's limping her broken ride into a battlefield of thousands of cubes. Somebody on that ship didn't do the math.
__________________
The Legend of Stratus Janice

"The Face of Boe they called me."
Luminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2008, 08:41 PM   #197
William Leisner
Scribbler
 
William Leisner's Avatar
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
View William Leisner's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

^ That's more of a case of the knife being dull and nicked than rusty...
William Leisner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2008, 08:59 PM   #198
Steve Roby
Commodore
 
Steve Roby's Avatar
 
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
All in all, I don't understand why people keep saying that they're tired of the Borg. Why aren't you tired of the Kilingons? Why aren't you tired of the Vulcans? Why aren't you tired of the Romulans? It just makes no sense to me at all.
I'm bored of the Borg because storytelling is about characters, and the Borg aren't characters. There are no individuals, unless you count the Borg Queen, and she's been done to death thanks to Voyager. You could count ex-Borg as characters, like Hugh and Seven, but they're ex-Borg. Different thing entirely.

Take a look at KRAD's A Burning House, his most recent Klingon novel. The book is about moving beyond the cliches of who the Klingons are. You get a wide range of characters living very different lives. You simply couldn't do a story like this about the Borg, because they have no character, no personality, no range, no lives. That was supposed to be the whole point way back when. That was what made them such a great enemy: they're not like the Klingons or Romulans, they're like an avalanche. You can't have conversations with them and negotiate with them.

But how many different stories can you tell about dealing with an avalanche? You can't have a Borg story like "Balance of Terror," involving a duel between honourable enemies; you can't have a Borg story like "The Enterprise Incident," with intrigue and seduction; you can't have a story like "The Defector," or "Unification," etc., because the different characters who drive those stories don't have Borg counterparts.

Am I making sense?
Steve Roby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2008, 09:22 PM   #199
Stephen!
Captain
 
Stephen!'s Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
You can't have conversations with them and negotiate with them.
Unless you count Janeway's negotiation with them in "Scorpion"
Stephen! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2008, 09:55 PM   #200
Steve Roby
Commodore
 
Steve Roby's Avatar
 
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Stephen! wrote: View Post
Unless you count Janeway's negotiation with them in "Scorpion"
Not a typical situation, really... unless you introduce a lot of worse-than-the-Borg threats to the point where the Borg became allies instead of enemies.
Steve Roby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2008, 10:58 PM   #201
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
...you can't have a Borg story like "The Enterprise Incident"...
Thank God.
__________________
"All of time and space. Everywhere and anywhere, every star that ever was. Where do you want to start?"
Exploring the Universe
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 12:00 AM   #202
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
you can't have a Borg story like "The Enterprise Incident," with intrigue and seduction...
I know this isn't quite what you meant, but what about "Unimatrix Zero?" The captain dons a disguise to pass as the enemy and infiltrate their ship in order to undermine their military effectiveness. There's your intrigue. And the Queen is pretty seductive in her way, both with Tuvok and with the alien boy.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 03:00 AM   #203
foravalon
Fleet Captain
 
foravalon's Avatar
 
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

AB: "Is that fun?"
QN: "...yes, it's fun."
__________________
Homer: "I'm really glad you corrected me Lisa. People are always reeaally glad when they're corrected."
------------------
Knocking Threads Off Topic since 2004
.
foravalon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 03:18 AM   #204
Silversmok3
Commander
 
Silversmok3's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Bravo,Mr Mack!

I was afraid that book 3 would suffer conclusion syndrome and wind up overloaded with closing too many plots.

If I were forced to pick a favorite scene,of all the events it would be bringing the Columbia home.

Its an excellent conclusion as it all started with that ship trying to get home...and accidently starting the monstrosity that was the Borg.

It also pays tribute to the Columbia's crew that died trying to escape the supernova in the first novel.

Again ,bravo on an excellent novel!
__________________
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under Heaven:A time to heal, A time to break down, and a time to build up.
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
Silversmok3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 06:18 AM   #205
David Mack
Writer
 
David Mack's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
View David Mack's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

^ Gracias, much appreciated.
__________________
~ David Mack | "Where were you when the page was blank?" — Truman Capote

Join me on Facebook & Twitter
David Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 04:00 PM   #206
Luminus
Fleet Captain
 
Luminus's Avatar
 
Location: The Singularity
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

William Leisner wrote: View Post
^ That's more of a case of the knife being dull and nicked than rusty...
Meh, semantics. You get the point.

Steve Roby wrote: View Post
I'm bored of the Borg because storytelling is about characters, and the Borg aren't characters. There are no individuals, unless you count the Borg Queen, and she's been done to death thanks to Voyager. You could count ex-Borg as characters, like Hugh and Seven, but they're ex-Borg. Different thing entirely.

Take a look at KRAD's A Burning House, his most recent Klingon novel. The book is about moving beyond the cliches of who the Klingons are. You get a wide range of characters living very different lives. You simply couldn't do a story like this about the Borg, because they have no character, no personality, no range, no lives. That was supposed to be the whole point way back when. That was what made them such a great enemy: they're not like the Klingons or Romulans, they're like an avalanche. You can't have conversations with them and negotiate with them.

But how many different stories can you tell about dealing with an avalanche? You can't have a Borg story like "Balance of Terror," involving a duel between honourable enemies; you can't have a Borg story like "The Enterprise Incident," with intrigue and seduction; you can't have a story like "The Defector," or "Unification," etc., because the different characters who drive those stories don't have Borg counterparts.

Am I making sense?
No. You just don't like the borg. I, on the other hand, love the borg. With episodes like Scorpion, Unity, I,Borg, Descent and books like Homecoming, The Return, The Nanotech War and Federation, there are plenty of unique borg stories to go around and that's just 9 examples I've listed. Now we've got a full-scale borg attack, something we've never seen before, which is great.

Bottom line is that the borg exist and the Federation is the target. The writer's can't just ignore that. There are plenty of Klingon books out there, you know. I'm just sayin'.
__________________
The Legend of Stratus Janice

"The Face of Boe they called me."
Luminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 04:04 PM   #207
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Bravo,Mr Mack!

I was afraid that book 3 would suffer conclusion syndrome and wind up overloaded with closing too many plots.

If I were forced to pick a favorite scene,of all the events it would be bringing the Columbia home.

Its an excellent conclusion as it all started with that ship trying to get home...and accidently starting the monstrosity that was the Borg.

It also pays tribute to the Columbia's crew that died trying to escape the supernova in the first novel.

Again ,bravo on an excellent novel!
I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, this is the one for Mere Mortals, the second book in the trilogy.
__________________
Over the course of many encounters and many years, I have successfully developed a standard operating procedure for dealing with big, nasty monsters. Run away. Me and Monty Python.
Harry Dresden - Blood Rites (The Dresden Files #6)
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 04:17 PM   #208
Brendan Moody
Vice Admiral
 
Brendan Moody's Avatar
 
Location: Maine
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Luminus wrote: View Post
Steve Roby wrote: View Post
Am I making sense?
No. You just don't like the borg.
No, he's making plenty of sense, and I like the Borg fine. The list of good Borg stories you offer is revealing: the Borg play a tangential role in some of them, or some weird new angle on the Borg is introduced. They aren't an inherently workable long-term alien antagonist in the way of most other Trek baddies.
Bottom line is that the borg exist and the Federation is the target. The writer's can't just ignore that.
Sure they could. More or less since the Borg were introduced the writers of TV, film, and tie-ins had been ignoring the obvious fact that even a small fraction of the Borg strength could wipe out the Alpha Quadrant. It's nice that the fiction has now chosen to address that, but it's not like Star Trek from 1990 to 2008 somehow falls apart because the Borg were used selectively.
__________________
Egg, I dreamed I was old.
Brendan Moody is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 05:20 PM   #209
Steve Roby
Commodore
 
Steve Roby's Avatar
 
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
Luminus wrote: View Post
Steve Roby wrote: View Post
Am I making sense?
No. You just don't like the borg.
No, he's making plenty of sense, and I like the Borg fine. The list of good Borg stories you offer is revealing: the Borg play a tangential role in some of them, or some weird new angle on the Borg is introduced. They aren't an inherently workable long-term alien antagonist in the way of most other Trek baddies.
Thanks. I thought the Borg were great early on. But it became obvious that the writers ran out of ways to use the Borg as Borg, and had to make drastic changes to keep using them -- take a single Borg out of the collective, take a few Borg out of the collective, take another Borg out of the collective, etc.

It rarely felt like we were learning more about the Borg, it felt like the Borg were being changed so the writers could do something new with them.
  • The Borg are a species who have their own children in "Q Who," even if the babies aren't the result of basic sexual reproduction. Later they seem mainly to be assimilated from other species.
  • Jean-Luc Picard survives assimilation and is almost always shown living a pretty good post-Borg life -- but he has to kill Borg-assimiliated members of his own crew in First Contact because (unlike him) they're better off dead.
  • The Borg are a collective with no individuality who need Locutus to speak for them. Except that they have a queen who can speak for them.
  • Humans first encounter the Borg in "Q Who." But that's retconned on Voyager to several years earlier, and then retconned on Enterprise to centuries earlier.
Steve Roby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2008, 08:38 PM   #210
Baerbel Haddrell
Commodore
 
Baerbel Haddrell's Avatar
 
Location: GB
Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Mere Mortals - SPOILER Thread

I see this very differently. What happened is that we, the readers and audience learned more about the Borg in time. Of course it also has something to do with it that if the Borg had stayed the way they were in “Q Who” without adding more dimension to them, they would have become very uninteresting very quickly.

I don`t think the Borg really changed. What happened over time is that new aspects, new elements were added and new discoveries were made.

By the way, I disagree with it that Picard “had” to kill Borg assimilated members of his own crew because they are better off dead. This is what he believed. Picard never gained the full knowledge of the Borg when he was assimilated.

I don`t think they really needed Picard as a spokesperson. They just used him as a tool, maybe also as a weapon of terror. The queen certainly understands that concept.

Voyager is full of contradictions but I don`t see what happened in Enterprise as retconning history. It wouldn`t surprise me if there are other earlier appearances of the Borg that never made it into any history books.
__________________
Bleach (Ichigo to Muramasa) "We all make mistakes. You just have to accept what happened and fix what you can."
Baerbel Haddrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
david mack, destiny

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.