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Old October 6 2008, 10:17 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: borg question

...On rewatching "Unimatrix Zero", it seems to me that when the Queen is speaking of "disembodiment", she is actually referring to the mirror image of decapitation. That is, for her, the ultimate bliss is to exist as a head without a body!

True, she also seems to exist as noncorporeal software, manifesting at will wherever the Collective needs her. But the particular scene in the episode specifically involves her talking to a severed head...

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Old October 7 2008, 02:37 AM   #17
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Re: borg question

ok. so borg seek perfection by augmenting biology with technology. isn't the logic of that argument flawed by default?

however, if we bypass that flaw for a sec and accept it, aren't their "improvements" impairing other functions of the biological being? if you're going to improve something, won't you keep aspects that are good and augment those? they have made the biological body sluggish and inneficient. not to mention they've made themselves quite hideous. i understand that they are probably not as concerned with physical perfection (though that's arguable) rather than functional perfection (though clearly they have not done so), but if you have that much in the way of technology, why would you need tubes, akward appendage replacements, etc. all that can be done through nanotech (which they have) without compromising the function of the body. in fact if they kept the basic biological design, they would be a lot more... perfect as they would have been able to keep the full functionality of the biological body, except with huge technological improvements. not only that but their nanotech improvements would be a lot more efficient and adaptable. as it stands, their "improvements" hinder certain functions of the biological body. making all their "improvements' streamlined, compact, and less disruptive of the biological body's design IS what would an upward improvement. what they are currently doing is more of a diagonal improvement. they are augmenting the body to improve yet losing functionality. sure, one might say that they are not concerned with those types of functions, but if you step back and look at them with their bodies fully functioning as designed except highly improved, they would be quite unstoppable.

think of it as making the 6 million dollar man rather than making a cyberman (dr who).

also, if they regard the biological body quite important, you'd think they'd employ genetic engineering. that too is technology. genetically engineered techonologically improved beings, only the Q would be able to stop them... if they could even...

Last edited by roguephoenix; October 7 2008 at 02:57 AM.
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Old October 7 2008, 07:56 AM   #18
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Re: borg question

It's just the ambiguous nature of "improvement" at work here, folks.

Humans are supposedly "advanced" despite having lost (or failing to have gained) such valuable things as high running speed (instead we just have endurance almost unparalleled in nature), protective skin (ours is merely very good at sweating), sharp eyes (ours are merely versatile), or fangs or claws of great reach and potency (we only have our brains).

The Borg Drones have many advantages in the Trek environment. A single individual can hack a starship, a small gaggle can assimilate it, a group can probably outprocess a starship computer. An individual has access to the expertise and skills of tens of thousands of civilizations. That's meaningful perfection, for the Trek environment; the Drone could be essentially sessile and still outshine the leanest and meanest examples of physical perfection, the most elegant predators, the least conspicuous skulkers, the fastest runners, the least shakeable defenders.

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Old October 8 2008, 03:37 AM   #19
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Re: borg question

Timo wrote: View Post
It's just the ambiguous nature of "improvement" at work here, folks.

Humans are supposedly "advanced" despite having lost (or failing to have gained) such valuable things as high running speed (instead we just have endurance almost unparalleled in nature), protective skin (ours is merely very good at sweating), sharp eyes (ours are merely versatile), or fangs or claws of great reach and potency (we only have our brains).

The Borg Drones have many advantages in the Trek environment. A single individual can hack a starship, a small gaggle can assimilate it, a group can probably outprocess a starship computer. An individual has access to the expertise and skills of tens of thousands of civilizations. That's meaningful perfection, for the Trek environment; the Drone could be essentially sessile and still outshine the leanest and meanest examples of physical perfection, the most elegant predators, the least conspicuous skulkers, the fastest runners, the least shakeable defenders.

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if so, they don't show it. they seem more like bumbling, slow, vulnerable, unecessary things rather than important part of the machine that is the borg.
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Old October 8 2008, 04:15 AM   #20
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Re: borg question

All the borg we've ever seen were assimilated humanoids. It wouldn't be a far leap to guess that the original borg species was humanoid. So perhaps it is a racial memory that keeps the borg in their physical bodies, instead of going to the nanite route.
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Old October 8 2008, 04:30 AM   #21
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Re: borg question

ScaryPants wrote: View Post
All the borg we've ever seen were assimilated humanoids. It wouldn't be a far leap to guess that the original borg species was humanoid. So perhaps it is a racial memory that keeps the borg in their physical bodies, instead of going to the nanite route.
yea thinking about the same. that they're subconsciously wanting to keep their biological side even though they are striving for perfection. they're unable to leave all the imperfections behind because subconsciously they can't. however, it doesn't explain why they're not using their tech or their biological potential to their most efficient and most improved. that's what i'm trying to understand. trying to understand their concept.
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Old October 8 2008, 05:23 AM   #22
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Re: borg question

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
Jeri wrote: View Post
No one can grab onto the collective, so it's not at risk in that way. Their bodies are, in turn, replaceable and expendable. Perfection, in fact, is disembodiment, according to the queen.
so why do they still keep the bodies? assimilate the info and discard the body. they could use the bodies as fuel. they could all live as one consciousness within their systems. are drones even necessary with all that tech? can't they just deliver the nanites via raining them on the planet? transporting them in the ships? drones seem more like a liability for the collective as people find ways to get at the collective through drones.
You need to think like a TV exec. They LOOK menacing and scary for a reason... it's good TV. No logic necessary since Hollywood is all about outward appearances.
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Old October 8 2008, 03:00 PM   #23
Jeri
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Re: borg question

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
yea thinking about the same. that they're subconsciously wanting to keep their biological side even though they are striving for perfection. they're unable to leave all the imperfections behind because subconsciously they can't. however, it doesn't explain why they're not using their tech or their biological potential to their most efficient and most improved. that's what i'm trying to understand. trying to understand their concept.
Keeping their biological side is not subconscious; they plainly do it by design: they approach perfection by assimilating other cultures' creativity. They don't practice creativity themselves per se. Your bottleneck appears to be at the location where you ascribe your own notion of what they should do in place of their stated goals.
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Old October 9 2008, 02:28 AM   #24
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Re: borg question

Jeri wrote: View Post
Keeping their biological side is not subconscious; they plainly do it by design: they approach perfection by assimilating other cultures' creativity. They don't practice creativity themselves per se. Your bottleneck appears to be at the location where you ascribe your own notion of what they should do in place of their stated goals.
so in essence their view of perfection is flawed. are they aware of that? though they keep their biological bodies, they do nothing to unlock the potential of those bodies even though they have the tech. i'm sure there are plenty of species that they've assimilated with amazing biological abilities. one that comes to mind are vulcans. they could release the potential of their minds, but they don't. they don't really elevate themselves. they're doing more of a diagonal rise rather than a vertical rise they have all the tech they need to accomplish this, but they don't. unlock biological potential and augment it with electronic technology. don't you think that's much better than just taking a regular body and augmenting it? which one would you say is more "efficient" or "perfect"? i doubt you'd pick the latter cause that wouldn't logically make sense. so why are they not doing that? do they not realize that their methods to gaining "perfection" and "efficiency" is very "imperfect" and defies streamline logic? if they don't realize that then they really are not following their directive.

also, if they assimilate "creativity" from the outside, doesn't that mean they do so in order to utilize it? if not, there's no logical reason to assimilate it.

i'm saying that their actions don't seem to FULLY correspond with their goals. am i the only one who thinks that? sure they somewhat follow their goals, but not to the best of their abilities, and they are capable of so much more and have the knowledge and tech to elevate themselves beyond what they are now. if they are thinking more machines as we have seen they either should be follwing their directive fully or not. there's no somewhat.

but i think mr. spook 7 had the best answer where the borg really don't make sense. they're just there to be meneacing even though they're not working as intended because the creators probably don't think that people will think about borg function as much as just go "ooh ahh" when they see them lol.
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Old October 9 2008, 03:02 PM   #25
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Re: borg question

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
so in essence their view of perfection is flawed...
In your opinion. That's what this topic is really all about: you want to run the Borg differently than they do, but it's their choice to make. Timo made the best point: essentially perfection is in the eye of the beholder.
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Old October 10 2008, 02:54 AM   #26
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Re: borg question

Jeri wrote: View Post
roguephoenix wrote: View Post
so in essence their view of perfection is flawed...
In your opinion. That's what this topic is really all about: you want to run the Borg differently than they do, but it's their choice to make. Timo made the best point: essentially perfection is in the eye of the beholder.
but we already know their view of perfection. it's not like we don't know what perfection means to them. even if we didn't know, we at least know that they have an analytical approach to perfection. so analytically speaking, their actions do not meet their goals as far as perfection. it's not like we're talking about some abstract view of perfection. they've stated it often enough and we've seen how they function.
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Old October 10 2008, 06:37 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: borg question

Excuse me, but what IYO is their view of perfection?

All they have stated, AFAIK, is that they wish to add the distinctiveness of pretty much everybody to their Collective, increase the quality of life of the assimilees, and become more powerful in the process themselves. That doesn't much define their views on perfection.

The Queen likes to be a loose head, and thinks that Omega molecules are pretty cool, but from this it doesn't follow that every Drone should be bodyless or become an Omega molecule ASAP. The Borg seek perfection, that much they say - and they bolt technology to biological bodies, that much we see. So it should follow, straightforwardly enough, that perfection for the Borg is a cybernetically augmented body.

As for the claim that such a body would need to be a Six Billion Dollar Plus Value Added Tax Man, that's absurd. Six Million Dollar Man didn't fly at hypersonic speeds, so he already fell short of perfection in one field. He didn't look like Johnny Depp, so he fell short in another field, too. He didn't play the dulcimer with any skill, so he was imperfect in yet another field. And he didn't even seek to improve himself in those fields - because they were irrelevant to his idea of bodily perfection, in this case physical prowess important in being an all-around hero and rescue engine.

The Borg aren't fast runners, but that's irrelevant to physical perfection. They don't have to run, because they are invulnerable. The Borg don't dance like Bruce Lee, but again, that's irrelevant. If Bruce Lee wanted to play rough with them, he'd simply be snapped in half. And neither Carl Lewis nor Bruce Lee would be able to compete with the Borg on real survival skills, such as the hability to hack into starships.

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Old October 11 2008, 05:42 AM   #28
roguephoenix
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Re: borg question

Timo wrote: View Post
Excuse me, but what IYO is their view of perfection?

All they have stated, AFAIK, is that they wish to add the distinctiveness of pretty much everybody to their Collective, increase the quality of life of the assimilees, and become more powerful in the process themselves. That doesn't much define their views on perfection.

The Queen likes to be a loose head, and thinks that Omega molecules are pretty cool, but from this it doesn't follow that every Drone should be bodyless or become an Omega molecule ASAP. The Borg seek perfection, that much they say - and they bolt technology to biological bodies, that much we see. So it should follow, straightforwardly enough, that perfection for the Borg is a cybernetically augmented body.

As for the claim that such a body would need to be a Six Billion Dollar Plus Value Added Tax Man, that's absurd. Six Million Dollar Man didn't fly at hypersonic speeds, so he already fell short of perfection in one field. He didn't look like Johnny Depp, so he fell short in another field, too. He didn't play the dulcimer with any skill, so he was imperfect in yet another field. And he didn't even seek to improve himself in those fields - because they were irrelevant to his idea of bodily perfection, in this case physical prowess important in being an all-around hero and rescue engine.

The Borg aren't fast runners, but that's irrelevant to physical perfection. They don't have to run, because they are invulnerable. The Borg don't dance like Bruce Lee, but again, that's irrelevant. If Bruce Lee wanted to play rough with them, he'd simply be snapped in half. And neither Carl Lewis nor Bruce Lee would be able to compete with the Borg on real survival skills, such as the hability to hack into starships.

Timo Saloniemi
ok, first off, the fact that they view the omega molecule as the epiotomy of perfection is already a big clue of their views. the efficiency, symetry, and power of the molecule. they worship it and try to be like it, like how it works. the only way to achieve that molecule is if all components are at their peak and working in harmony.

second, the example about the six million dollar man was an analogy. it's when you use something simpler in order to drive a point. i used those easier to grasp examples in order to show comparative difference between what they want and what they are doing. lol what i was trying to illustrate is that the guy was more than he used to be. his body was augmented with tech yet the tech wasn't in the way and it boosted his natural abilities. i wasn't saying that he was already perfect but essentially more than normal humans were.

third, the borg are not invulnerable lol. if that were true they'd be gods.

as far as "being fast runners" being irrelevant to physical perfection, that's not entirely true. the reason people are able to run faster than others is because they have a natural gift that gives them the advantage. the fact that they run faster is just a byproduct of the enhanced ability they have. they, of course, will not strive to be fast runners, or whatnot. that's not what boosting the body's potential is all about. ok, to use an analogy again, hopefully you understand, if a bodybuilder wants a more perfect body, he'll not neglect a certain part while boosting others. same goes for the borg. they value symetry so it has to be a unilateral boost not just one part.

clearly they value their biological components else they would just abandon. however they're not doing anything to unlock the biological potential while they are doing everything they can to unlock cybernetic potential. it's not balanced. there are so many ways to boost the biological components. one example is unlocking the potential of vulcan minds and using that to their advantage. unlocking the potential of the klingon physiology to make them virtually unstoppable.

using your bruce lee example lol imagine a borg with bruce lee's ability and a regular drone. who do you think would be more successful, if it's even a question? show the queen a borg that's agile, smart, have natural stamina, and certain abilities that you might call "powers" and see if she doesn't pick them over regular drones. that's all i'm saying. they can, and are able to to make a super humanoid borg that would elevate them a step up to perfection and would essentially follow their directive to elevate the quality of life, using the distictiveness to add to their collective, and in the process becoming more powerful and following their essential view of perfection. that would also follow their analytical view of perfection as all components will be working at their peak, with symetry and efficiency.

sorry, but does anyone see my point? am i alone in this? thinking that the borg are not following their primal drive? they are simply... being mediocre when they are capable of being so much more and have the knowledge and tech to do it? i don't know why but that's how i see them. as a species (not a plot device) they are capable of elevating themselves, which is their primal drive, but for some reason are not. they're like that 40 year old living at home working part time because the parents are rich and he's comfortable there. lol

Last edited by roguephoenix; October 11 2008 at 06:12 AM.
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Old October 14 2008, 01:37 AM   #29
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Re: borg question

The problem is whats being perfected. The Borg drones or the Borg Collective. They are two different things.

The Collective is seeking perfection, and sends it drones out to pursue those goals.

Drones are simply parts of the collective. If the collective were destroyed, those parts are no longer Borg, because they never were.

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Old October 14 2008, 03:35 AM   #30
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Re: borg question

I think the easy answer is the correct answer - They look that way because its really cool. I dont think the Borg ever would of become so popular if they didn't all look like horrible machinized Frankensteins.
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