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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 27 2008, 01:56 PM   #31
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

rofeta wrote: View Post
cultcross wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

I've no doubt that he would have been court martialed if there had been any deaths from his WMD. But the fact that there was none, coupled with the Federation's irrational hatred of the Maquis for daring to want to secede from the UFP, meant that nothing happened.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the reason - there weren't any casualties to splay their faces all over the 21:00 Hours News (Not quite the same ring to it in the 24th century ) so the public wouldn't get their moral outrage up and running, and the planet was a Maquis base, so the Federation don't shed any tears over its loss. Which is hard to fathom, really - I realise Class M planets are rather stupidly easy to come by on Star Trek but it seems a bit much to just overlook unleashing a wmd on one out of, essentially, angry revenge.
You also get the positive spin that can be placed on the fact that the displaced Cardassian colonists from the Maquis' initial surprise attack can apparently just swap planets with the Maquis colonists. That would have got the Feds some points from the Cardassian government, making Starfleet hesitate from taking action against Sisko lest it send the Cardassians the wrong message. Then you have Sisko's role as the Emissary to the Bajoran Prophets and if you imprision him or boot him out of service relations with the Bajorans could be damaged. Bajoran could just recruit him into their Militia order Starfleet out of Deep Space 9, or say that they want a Bajoran militia officer in command and Sisko could be back in command of the station and if Starfleet still has a presence, they would be then at his whim and no longer have any control over him or his actions.
Even though there were no deaths, the potential for them was definitely there if ANYTHING had gone wrong. Those Cardassians on the evacuating ship almost died. While that wasn't Sisko's doing, who knows what could've gone wrong with the Maquis evacuation--and don't forget, we can't prove everyone on that planet was a Maquis sympathizer. Some people may have just been there with family. So innocent people, and children get run out of their homes because a nutter decides to launch a WMD? I don't think so.

And switch planets? So? Both people got run out of the place they were calling home. And who knows what was done to the ecosystems of those planets? Are they even getting planets that are going to be any use to them?
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Old September 27 2008, 03:43 PM   #32
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

^ Innocent people are always displaced and killed in armed conflicts. Not making excuses but the Maquis were a significant risk to peace and stability in that area of the quadrant. Starfleet or the Federation might make the trade off that this event, while devastating to hundreds or thousands of people, is worth the cost of keeping the Cardassians appeased and onside.

Given the devastating power of weapons in the 24th century they might have a different view on WMDs. A single photon torpedo potentially has the power to kill millions and no one blinks at their usage. Maybe there might be an element of that in the 24th century humans or the Federation in general have a slightly different view on "WMDs" and what Sisko did isn't considered all that bad.

Back to the post-Dominion War Cardassia, I don't think we've mentioned the fact that the Dominion handed over several territories to the Breen near the end of the war. You would think after the war the Cardassians would want them back. However, I can't see the Breen giving them back.
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Old September 28 2008, 03:07 AM   #33
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

rofeta wrote: View Post
Given the devastating power of weapons in the 24th century they might have a different view on WMDs. A single photon torpedo potentially has the power to kill millions and no one blinks at their usage. Maybe there might be an element of that in the 24th century humans or the Federation in general have a slightly different view on "WMDs" and what Sisko did isn't considered all that bad.
While we can't be sure--there is a huge difference, with photon torpedoes, between ship-to-ship combat and orbital bombardment. The latter--as we saw with Lakarian City--is considered an atrocity.

There was definitely in that episode outrage at the idea that Sisko would use a biogenic weapon--the nature of the weapon itself was definitely part of that. So I really doubt the stance towards WMDs has changed much in the 24th century. (If anything, I would have expected that given the evidence that their politics take after today's liberals, that attitude to become even more stringent, although that's conjecture.)

Back to the post-Dominion War Cardassia, I don't think we've mentioned the fact that the Dominion handed over several territories to the Breen near the end of the war. You would think after the war the Cardassians would want them back. However, I can't see the Breen giving them back.
The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?
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Old September 28 2008, 04:40 PM   #34
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?
Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.
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Old September 28 2008, 08:10 PM   #35
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Damask wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?
Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.
Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.
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Old September 28 2008, 08:28 PM   #36
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Damask wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?
Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.
Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.
Of course, the problem there is talking about who holds legitimate governance on Cardassia -- who holds legitimacy with the populace? It's like trying to figure out who the real leader of Lebanon is right now.
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Old September 28 2008, 09:05 PM   #37
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Sci wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Damask wrote: View Post

Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.
Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.
Of course, the problem there is talking about who holds legitimate governance on Cardassia -- who holds legitimacy with the populace? It's like trying to figure out who the real leader of Lebanon is right now.
Well, Dukat and his Dominion allies certainly had a honeymoon after their coup d'etat, culminating in their taking of DS9/Terak Nor - but it seems that the Cardies started falling out of love with the Dominion soon after they started losing. Which, of course, was then followed by the Dominion starting to take their frustrations out on the Cardassians themselves.
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Old September 29 2008, 08:13 PM   #38
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Dukat's ability to "negotiate" for all of Cardassia to join the Dominion really wierded me out. At the point at which he announced Cardassia's entry to the Dominion, he had lost his standing with the legitimate civilian government and his rank of Legate because of his daughter Ziyal. What I'm guessing took place was the same thing that Weyoun tried to pull with Sisko, offering absolute rule of his government. The fact that Dukat had ties with the military that helped him gain support is irrelevant to the feelings of the Cardassian populace at large, and specifically the civilian government. The Dominion probably just swept in with their first big fleet, headed straight to Cardassia Prime, quickly and quietly disposed of the civilian government, and stuck Dukat in power as their puppet dictator, with the Central Command sitting on it's hindquarters all the while.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the civilian populace, and possibly some of the military, shouldn't be vilified as much as many seem keen to do. The Cardies were in no way ever unified in their desire to join the Dominion, and in fact most of them probably did not have a choice in the matter. Therefore, Cardassia shouldn't be completely dissolved as a nation-state, but rather allowed to reinstate it's original government and go from there. I also agree with those that said the Obsidian Order would have to go, and I humbly submit that the Central Command (or what was left of it) should be tossed as well, since they were most likely complicit in the coup d'etat.

Granted, it may have been necessary to secede some of the former Cardassian territories to the victors, especially those that had already substantial military assets placed on them. I'm pretty sure the Klingons would insist on it, and probably the Romulans if any of the territories were already close to home (since we know how much the Rommies like to play their cards close to the chest ). Cardassia itself would probably have to be left alone, for the simple reason that it's their homeworld and they need that to rebuild their civilization (if it wasn't too badly decimated by the Dominion already, another thing that's kind of left up in the air).
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Old September 29 2008, 11:49 PM   #39
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Renvar wrote: View Post
Dukat's ability to "negotiate" for all of Cardassia to join the Dominion really wierded me out. At the point at which he announced Cardassia's entry to the Dominion, he had lost his standing with the legitimate civilian government and his rank of Legate because of his daughter Ziyal. What I'm guessing took place was the same thing that Weyoun tried to pull with Sisko, offering absolute rule of his government. The fact that Dukat had ties with the military that helped him gain support is irrelevant to the feelings of the Cardassian populace at large, and specifically the civilian government. The Dominion probably just swept in with their first big fleet, headed straight to Cardassia Prime, quickly and quietly disposed of the civilian government, and stuck Dukat in power as their puppet dictator, with the Central Command sitting on it's hindquarters all the while.
That's the most likely scenario, I think.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the civilian populace, and possibly some of the military, shouldn't be vilified as much as many seem keen to do. The Cardies were in no way ever unified in their desire to join the Dominion, and in fact most of them probably did not have a choice in the matter. Therefore, Cardassia shouldn't be completely dissolved as a nation-state, but rather allowed to reinstate it's original government and go from there. I also agree with those that said the Obsidian Order would have to go, and I humbly submit that the Central Command (or what was left of it) should be tossed as well, since they were most likely complicit in the coup d'etat.
They definitely shouldn't be dissolved--as proud as they are of their nation, doing that would be as stupid as the Treaty of Versailles...just ASKING for future trouble.

The Obsidian Order's successor (the CIB, I believe) would have to go; I agree. As for Central Command, I think what should be done with that is similar to what was done with the Iraqi Army: get rid of the nutty elements, but look for solid, reliable talent affiliated with the Cardassian Liberation Front. Some of those could be converted into the new Central Command. Unfortunately we don't have Damar to help with the selection process, but I would suspect that Colonel Kira, having dealt with the rebellion extensively, would have a good bit of his knowledge and intelligence about who would be suited for the position (coupled, as well, with Starfleet Intelligence's reports).

The trouble here would be to keep Section 31 from screwing with the process.

Granted, it may have been necessary to secede some of the former Cardassian territories to the victors, especially those that had already substantial military assets placed on them. I'm pretty sure the Klingons would insist on it, and probably the Romulans if any of the territories were already close to home (since we know how much the Rommies like to play their cards close to the chest ). Cardassia itself would probably have to be left alone, for the simple reason that it's their homeworld and they need that to rebuild their civilization (if it wasn't too badly decimated by the Dominion already, another thing that's kind of left up in the air).
How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)
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Old September 30 2008, 01:05 AM   #40
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

They put Paul Bremer in charge of post-war reconstruction.
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Old September 30 2008, 01:22 AM   #41
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)
I think it would have been necessary, not only from a strategic standpoint, but also from a diplomatic one. Just because they shared a common enemy in battle, that doesn't mean that the Federation's allies are going going to stop looking out for themselves. The Klingons and the Romulans aren't going to just skulk back to their homeworlds while the Feds put the shattered pieces of the Union back together. All the parties involved lost hundreds of millions in the war, and based on what I know about their respective philosophies and customs, these two superpowers are going to expect something more out of it than just a defeated foe. That's not saying it's the right decision for the long term stability, but it is the realistic outcome.
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Old September 30 2008, 01:45 AM   #42
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Renvar wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)
I think it would have been necessary, not only from a strategic standpoint, but also from a diplomatic one. Just because they shared a common enemy in battle, that doesn't mean that the Federation's allies are going going to stop looking out for themselves. The Klingons and the Romulans aren't going to just skulk back to their homeworlds while the Feds put the shattered pieces of the Union back together. All the parties involved lost hundreds of millions in the war, and based on what I know about their respective philosophies and customs, these two superpowers are going to expect something more out of it than just a defeated foe. That's not saying it's the right decision for the long term stability, but it is the realistic outcome.
The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.

As for the Romulans...whether or not they actually feel said expectation would probably have to do with what they think they can get out of the postwar scenario. I think they could see potential for a bigger prize than a bunch of devastated, resource-poor worlds.

Consider this: if the Federation and the Klingons have to take the whole reconstruction burden on themselves--especially if the Federation does have to go it alone like I suggested, their forces would be seriously spread thin in the relief and defense efforts. The Federation would essentially be in the position of having to defend its borders AND the Cardassian Union's borders, not to mention be pouring in a HELL of a lot of resources into Cardassia if they decide to go for a full-out Marshall Plan. This after their fleet taking a beating in the War, and having known manpower shortages. Not to mention being psychologically exhausted.

The Romulans have been in the war the least amount of time. Comparatively, they may have fewer losses and more psychological reserves in addition to physical resources. With a heavily-burdened Federation that's having to administer two territories at once, and a pretty beaten-up Klingon Empire, the Romulans could definitely get up to some nasty tricks...things they might have reason to believe would score them a much bigger prize down the line, than anything the Cardassian Union has to offer.
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Old September 30 2008, 04:37 AM   #43
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.
Why would the Federation care about what happened to Septimus III?
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Old September 30 2008, 05:51 AM   #44
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

rofeta wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.
Why would the Federation care about what happened to Septimus III?
It was MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE overkill. Where is the justification for a wholesale slaughter? The Eleventh Order could easily have been dealt a blow from which they could not recover without having to kill all 500,000. (And there was no statement anywhere to indicate that the 11th did any sort of kamikaze maneuver--the way it was described, the Klingon troops were responsible.) That's not a battle. That's a massacre.

Obviously the Cardassians have some hideous things in their past, and I'm not justifying a bit of it. But Septimus III would, in the Cardassians' eyes, be the most recent in a string of abuses by the Klingons--including the unjustified war that arguably paved the way for the Dominion to take over the Union. If I were them, I would not want a single Klingon in Cardassian territory: they probably would be concerned the Klingons might take the opportunity to finish the genocide the Dominion started. True, Martok's leadership probably means that wouldn't really happen. But if I were a Cardassian, I would not trust that without their having to prove themselves over a long period of time.
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Old September 30 2008, 01:40 PM   #45
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
It was MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE overkill. Where is the justification for a wholesale slaughter? The Eleventh Order could easily have been dealt a blow from which they could not recover without having to kill all 500,000. (And there was no statement anywhere to indicate that the 11th did any sort of kamikaze maneuver--the way it was described, the Klingon troops were responsible.) That's not a battle. That's a massacre.

Obviously the Cardassians have some hideous things in their past, and I'm not justifying a bit of it. But Septimus III would, in the Cardassians' eyes, be the most recent in a string of abuses by the Klingons--including the unjustified war that arguably paved the way for the Dominion to take over the Union. If I were them, I would not want a single Klingon in Cardassian territory: they probably would be concerned the Klingons might take the opportunity to finish the genocide the Dominion started. True, Martok's leadership probably means that wouldn't really happen. But if I were a Cardassian, I would not trust that without their having to prove themselves over a long period of time.
Still don't see why the Federation would care. The Cardassians were the enemy at the time and from the reports the Klingons destroyed a military force that have half a million soldiers at is disposal. That's how you win wars, you take away the enemies ability and will to fight.

We don't know much about that battle anyway. The Cardassians could have decided to fight to the last out of stubbornness or because the commanders believed, like Damar did, that the Dominion would reinforce them. However, given what we know of the Klingons there is a high chance that they went a bit over the top. I think it was Nor the Battle to the Strong that one of the doctors/nurses said that in the heat of battle Klingons don't care if you're in medical scrubs, they are likely to lop your head off with a bat'leth.

If I were the Federation or Klingons I wouldn't be too trusting of the Cardassians either.
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