RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,914
Posts: 5,478,105
Members: 25,053
Currently online: 469
Newest member: johnclever25

TrekToday headlines

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 4 2008, 12:26 PM   #31
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

You can get into the Nexus with a starship at a risk. You can get into the Nexus with a planet at no risk. Why should Soran take the risky route?

Remember that he has already tried once and failed - the Nexus was said to have visited Soran's vicinity every 40 years, so this is his second attempt. No doubt he tried a starship the first time around - and when something (no matter what) went wrong with that, he sure as hell wouldn't try it a second time. He doesn't have an endless supply of decades to play with, after all.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2008, 01:43 AM   #32
foxmulder710
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Kirk's death was meaningless. Life is absurd and meaningless.

Nihilism reigns.
foxmulder710 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2008, 08:38 AM   #33
Brutal Strudel
Rear Admiral
 
Brutal Strudel's Avatar
 
Location: Here, frozen between time and place, not even the brightest lights escape...
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

foxmulder710 wrote: View Post
Kirk's death was meaningless. Life is absurd and meaningless.

Nihilism reigns.
Camus's Star Trek? Or Beckett's Waiting for Picard, in which two Metakkan clowns who never got the memo go through tragic antics (or is that antic tragedy?) while waiting for the arrival of the titular character, who may or may not symbolize God--I mean, Q.

SPOILER ALERT: Picard never shows.

Heavy shit.
__________________
Once every lifetime, we're swallowed by the whale.

Last edited by Brutal Strudel; October 5 2008 at 04:44 PM.
Brutal Strudel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2008, 12:53 AM   #34
Tom
Rear Admiral
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Location: In your Mind!
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Another thought is , if they were so concerned about the time it may take for the Enterprise to shoot the missle down, then why not move the Enterprise close to the Sun after droping off Picard. That way the missle would have been headed toward them (from Veridian 3) so they could shoot it down, if not let the missle itself hit the Enterprise to save millions of people. Clearly the ribbon was on it way to the system and they only would have needed to stay around the sun a very short time to guard it until the Nexus could not be affected by the stars implosion.
__________________
AP - Star Trek: Renegades - Starring Walter Koenig, Tim Russ, Robert Picardo & many more - Coming early 2015 - www.startrekrenegades.com

Owner - TrekUnited.com - Forum now re-open! click here
Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2008, 02:55 AM   #35
I am not Spock
Commodore
 
Location: Australia
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

For that matter, how do we actually KNOW Kirk and Picard ever left the nexus at all? Couldn't the events of the end of the movie, the foiling of Soran's plan, and the death of Kirk, etc (not to mention FC, Insurrection, Nemesis, most of DS9 and VOY) be just a figment of their imagination?

This movie is full of plotholes.
__________________
It's a FAAAAKKKEEE!
Senator Vreenak- In the Pale Moonlight
I am not Spock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2008, 07:44 AM   #36
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

why not move the Enterprise close to the Sun after droping off Picard.
I'm not sure this would help much. I mean, the range at which Worf would be firing at this tiny thing would either go from zero to about ten light-minutes (if the ship orbited the planet), or then from ten light-minutes to zero (if the ship was closer to the star), in about eleven seconds. In both cases, when the missile was at close range, it would be moving unpredictably: at the planet end, the launch point would be unknown, while at the star end, the missile would no doubt engage in terminal maneuvering. The challenges in both cases would be roughly the same.

A single starship could never hope to "block" a star: stars are big and starships are small. By moving to the star, the ship would be abandoning the Captain beyond transporter and sensor range, not to mention leaving the Klingons to wreak whatever havoc they wanted. It's not as if they would be likely to comply with a request to accompany the Enterprise to the star, after all.

The best hope of our shipborne heroes probably was to wait for Data to locate Soran's launcher, then beam up Picard if at all possible, and rain death on the launcher before the missile could be fired. That could not have been achieved "starside".

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2008, 11:00 PM   #37
Guartho
Rear Admiral
 
Guartho's Avatar
 
Location: Guartho
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Shrekker4747 wrote: View Post
And, if we're not going to invoke subspace here and just stick with gravity, we could probably surmise that, perhaps, the Trilithium Torpedo's detonation converted some of the star's mass into energy, enough of it apparently to drasticly alter the Nexus' path.
I don't think it needs to be drastic. From the visuals of the 2nd time around I'd say the Nexus' path was only altered by a couple of hundred feet. One wonders why Soran didn't spare the inhabitants of the Veridian system by just building a taller tower or going sky-diving or hang-gliding at the right moment.

Even if the nexus shifts quite a bit more than it looks like to me, we're only talking about a few miles at most. I'd think only a relatively small percentage of the star would need to converted to energy to change the gravity enough for that change. That's certainly within the capabilities of a mythical tri-lithium explosive.
__________________
"I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell." RIP, Red Ranger

(AKA "Mr. Donkey Kong King" for no apparent reason)
Guartho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2008, 08:15 AM   #38
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Data's schematic suggests a shift that is at least three planetary diameters in size, assuming the schematic is to scale. And it's highly unlikely to be to scale - the shift is also nearly the size of the difference between the orbits of Veridian IV and V!

Also, the ribbon is portrayed as being longer than a star system is wide. At such a scale, one couldn't really tell just by looking from Soran's scaffolding whether it had moved farther away by one kilometer or one astronomical unit.

We might assume that the Nexus is extremely sensitive to even minor changes in gravity, I guess. After all, it travels in and out of the galaxy in 40 years, meaning it moves at high warp - but when it approaches the planet, it's clearly sublight (as it can be seen approaching!), and when it hits the planet, it's moving at essentially walking pace. Possibly this is because the presence of stellar and planetary masses exerts a great influence on its speed and course. Thus, blowing up a star (that is, tampering with already ongoing, massive-scale fusion processes for rapidly changing the fate of trillions of tons of matter) would be a practical means of altering the course by several degrees and changing the speed by several orders of magnitude.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 04:04 PM   #39
blueziggy
Lieutenant
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

im just gonna take a simple explanation for the movement of the ribbon. pretend that the shockwave from the explosion is a pond or lake. the ribbon is a smooth shaped rock. when you throw the rock at the correct angle to the water it will skip across the pond. now while its still going the same general direction of how you throw it, the skips cause it to go a little further or higher or at a slightly different arc into the pond.
blueziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 06:00 PM   #40
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

blueziggy wrote: View Post
im just gonna take a simple explanation for the movement of the ribbon. pretend that the shockwave from the explosion is a pond or lake. the ribbon is a smooth shaped rock. when you throw the rock at the correct angle to the water it will skip across the pond. now while its still going the same general direction of how you throw it, the skips cause it to go a little further or higher or at a slightly different arc into the pond.
Well, first of all, there are no shock waves in vacuum. That's a common fallacy in SF. Second, even if there were, they'd travel slower than the speed of light. So there's no way the destruction of a star would instantly affect the course of a starship or anomaly light-years away. The only way to rationalize things like the stellar explosions affecting the Nexus, or the explosion of Praxis affecting Excelsior light-years away, is if we wave our hands and assume there's some kind of "shock" that propagates FTL through subspace and affects subspace-connected objects like the Nexus or starship warp cores.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 08:36 PM   #41
blueziggy
Lieutenant
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Christopher wrote: View Post
blueziggy wrote: View Post
im just gonna take a simple explanation for the movement of the ribbon. pretend that the shockwave from the explosion is a pond or lake. the ribbon is a smooth shaped rock. when you throw the rock at the correct angle to the water it will skip across the pond. now while its still going the same general direction of how you throw it, the skips cause it to go a little further or higher or at a slightly different arc into the pond.
Well, first of all, there are no shock waves in vacuum. That's a common fallacy in SF. Second, even if there were, they'd travel slower than the speed of light. So there's no way the destruction of a star would instantly affect the course of a starship or anomaly light-years away. The only way to rationalize things like the stellar explosions affecting the Nexus, or the explosion of Praxis affecting Excelsior light-years away, is if we wave our hands and assume there's some kind of "shock" that propagates FTL through subspace and affects subspace-connected objects like the Nexus or starship warp cores.
stop bringing science fact into the context of a movie that uses made up elements. for all we know there could be trilithium and when it is combined with a star and heats up to the point of explosion it expands out like a popcorn kernel. the point is, when dicussin the future and future elements, technology, materials and the like you can basically make up anything you want because it cant be proven false.
blueziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 08:51 PM   #42
Smiley
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

^There's a reason that this is sci-fi and not fantasy. Trek does use real science wherever it can. It uses cheats for dramatic necessity, but most of it is based on real-life discoveries and speculations. Some things are demonstratably impossible based on our current knowledge of the universe, and Star Trek should reflect that.
Smiley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 09:30 PM   #43
blueziggy
Lieutenant
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Smiley wrote: View Post
^There's a reason that this is sci-fi and not fantasy. Trek does use real science wherever it can. It uses cheats for dramatic necessity, but most of it is based on real-life discoveries and speculations. Some things are demonstratably impossible based on our current knowledge of the universe, and Star Trek should reflect that.
so then scientists have discovered trilithium?

again i understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is when you use something imaginary (which trilithium is) and get imaginary results from it then you cant claim that it is not factually true because duh its imaginary.
blueziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2008, 09:54 PM   #44
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

blueziggy wrote: View Post
again i understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is when you use something imaginary (which trilithium is) and get imaginary results from it then you cant claim that it is not factually true because duh its imaginary.
Thing is, they say explicitly that it's the change in gravitational distribution in the sector which causes the Nexus to change its course. In fact, Data says that so we can count on it not being a simplification for the sake of anyone. However, we know how gravity works well enough to know that's not how gravity works.

If you want to make up something, and attribute to it whatever effects your story needs, that's fine as long as the thing you make up seems thematically consistent and the rules seem non-arbitrary enough (another problem with the Nexus). But if you go around saying explicitly how it's supposed to work, when it can't work that way, and you want to bill yourself as having Real! Science! Content! as Star Trek fans like to claim, then you have to take the fall when you're just wrong.

(#include ritual disclaimer that science fiction fans really are satisfied with a patina of scientific gloss and won't be deterred from liking what they like just because it doesn't make qualitative, much less quantitative, sense.)
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2008, 04:50 PM   #45
Saxman1
Commodore
 
Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Wow, I tried watching this one last night and made it through about 45 minutes. It's even worse than I remembered. Data is completely annoying with the emotion chip and BTW, did they forget to play the light bill or something?

I say this as a TNG fan: once the Kirk/Scotty/Chekov prologue is over it's all downhill. Definitely going to sell this one and the rest of the TNG movies on DVD. But that's me.
Saxman1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.