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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 27 2008, 05:26 AM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Haggis and Tatties wrote: View Post
What gets me about Generation is that after Soran has won and has made it back into the nexus, Picard can now somehow change all this and reset everything and go against Soran's wishes while he is actually in the Nexus.

Strange one that one, still with Generations your better just grabbing a big bag of popcorn and switching off, save all those headaches...
Not strange, just ironic. Soran intended to enter the Nexus alone. The fact that Picard was in position to get swept into it as well was a snag in Soran's plans, one that proved fatal to them.
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Old September 27 2008, 06:22 AM   #17
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Haggis and Tatties wrote: View Post
What gets me about Generation is that after Soran has won and has made it back into the nexus, Picard can now somehow change all this and reset everything and go against Soran's wishes while he is actually in the Nexus.

Strange one that one, still with Generations your better just grabbing a big bag of popcorn and switching off, save all those headaches...
Not strange, just ironic. Soran intended to enter the Nexus alone. The fact that Picard was in position to get swept into it as well was a snag in Soran's plans, one that proved fatal to them.
But if the nexus can be anything you want it to be how can it be for Picard but not for Soran, what gives Picard the ability to reset what Soran has already done, because Soran is already in the nexus's so how can Picards wishes to reset everything supersede Sorans wishes to be in the Nexus...
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Old September 27 2008, 01:37 PM   #18
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

But then, there's a similar problem with the whole premise, namely that the supernovae have an instantaneous gravitational effect on things light-years away, even though gravity only propagates at the speed of light.
The movie doens't make that claim at all, Data said that the ribbon passes close to Veridan III so it must've been in the same system when the rocket went off destroying the Amargosa star only ensure that the ribbon would enter the system close enough to Veridan III. I'm sure that Soran had been charting the gravitational forces needed to bring the ribbon to a planet where he could just step into it.
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Old September 27 2008, 05:56 PM   #19
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Haggis and Tatties wrote: View Post
But if the nexus can be anything you want it to be how can it be for Picard but not for Soran, what gives Picard the ability to reset what Soran has already done, because Soran is already in the nexus's so how can Picards wishes to reset everything supersede Sorans wishes to be in the Nexus...
You're talking about two different things. Within the Nexus, you can create whatever illusory reality you want to perceive. But what Picard and Kirk did was to actually leave the Nexus into actual reality, just at an earlier time. Soran would've been lost in his own subjective reality and would've been unaware of the presence of Picard and Kirk, so he would've had no idea they were plotting to leave the Nexus and stop him.
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Old September 28 2008, 05:39 AM   #20
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

How does causing a supernova change the gravity from the star appreciably? Soran didn't "delete" the star, he just caused it to collapse (and the outer layers to expand at a sublight velocity).
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Old September 28 2008, 03:50 PM   #21
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

^^That's a good point. It wouldn't actually alter the center of mass of the system or cause its gravity to disappear. My rationalization for that and for the instantaneous propagation is that it isn't really a loss of gravity, more a sort of subspace shock wave that spreads FTL and nudges subspace-connected entities (such as starships and the Nexus) onto different courses by changing the topology of subspace.
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Old September 29 2008, 12:18 AM   #22
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

In high school science classes it's a "common" thing to demonstate the concept of gravity by getting a springy/sretchy material and spreading it across an area and placing a ball in it. The ball "weighs down" the area it is in causing a well. Another ball will roll across the rim of the well and spin into the well.

Could it be something similar with the Nexus? With the star blown up its mass is spread out across a wider area and at that in billions of trillions of pieces. It's no longer a concentrated, central mass. It's like taking a softball out of that springy material in the school experiment and tossing in a handful of ball bearings. Your second ball will no longer spin along a rim towards our heavier ball. There's no where for it to go or do since the mass is now so spread out.
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Old September 29 2008, 12:34 AM   #23
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
In high school science classes it's a "common" thing to demonstate the concept of gravity by getting a springy/sretchy material and spreading it across an area and placing a ball in it. The ball "weighs down" the area it is in causing a well. Another ball will roll across the rim of the well and spin into the well.

Could it be something similar with the Nexus? With the star blown up it's mass is spread out across a wider area and at that in bllions of trillions of pieces. It's no longer a concentrated, central mass. It's like taking a softball out out of that springy material in the school experiment and tossing in a handful of ball bearings. Your second ball will no longer spin along a rim towards our heavier ball. There's no where for it to go or do since the mass is now so spread out.
Indeed... I'm surprised people haven't thought of this sooner. I understood this as the basis for the story point when I saw the movie, and I was in elementary school at the time.
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Old September 29 2008, 01:43 AM   #24
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Could it be something similar with the Nexus? With the star blown up it's mass is spread out across a wider area and at that in bllions of trillions of pieces. It's no longer a concentrated, central mass. It's like taking a softball out out of that springy material in the school experiment and tossing in a handful of ball bearings. Your second ball will no longer spin along a rim towards our heavier ball. There's no where for it to go or do since the mass is now so spread out.
The major problem with that is that a roughly spherical ball of mass has --- from the point of view of something outside that ball --- the same gravitational field as a point particle. That is, until the Nexus gets within the radius of the exploding star's matter, it will continue to move exactly as it would have had the star been intact [1].

To salvage this we can invoke ``subspace effects'' which are somehow disrupted by the star's explosion and which interact strongly with the Nexus. But the dialogue actually says gravitational effects. Perhaps there's some way the two are related enough that even Data doesn't make the correction. Still, if there's nothing pulling on the Nexus that hasn't got farther away from the center of the star than the Nexus is, then the explosion doesn't do a thing to the Nexus's path.

[1] This has other consequences. For example, stuff put on the inside of a Dyson sphere, as seen in ``Relics'', would fall off into the sun because the net gravitation from the sphere is zero on its interior.
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Old September 29 2008, 03:02 AM   #25
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Nebusj wrote: View Post
The major problem with that is that a roughly spherical ball of mass has --- from the point of view of something outside that ball --- the same gravitational field as a point particle. That is, until the Nexus gets within the radius of the exploding star's matter, it will continue to move exactly as it would have had the star been intact
You'll have to pardon me as I've only a crude and basic understand of physics based off stuff I learned in high-school over 10 years ago and limited self-study.

I understand what you are saying and it "make sense" but at the same time I don't much understand how trillions of tiny particles each with miniscule gravitational pull spread out across over hundreds of thousand if not millions of miles is going to have the same gravitational effect as all of those particles in one, single, huge mass.

And, if we're not going to invoke subspace here and just stick with gravity, we could probably surmise that, perhaps, the Trilithium Torpedo's detonation converted some of the star's mass into energy, enough of it apparently to drasticly alter the Nexus' path.

To salvage this we can invoke ``subspace effects'' which are somehow disrupted by the star's explosion and which interact strongly with the Nexus. But the dialogue actually says gravitational effects. Perhaps there's some way the two are related enough that even Data doesn't make the correction. Still, if there's nothing pulling on the Nexus that hasn't got farther away from the center of the star than the Nexus is, then the explosion doesn't do a thing to the Nexus's path.
It's concievable by the 24th century they've discovered that whatever element of the universe "generates" gravity has a subspace component and, yeah, that effected the Nexus which could easily be infered as a disruption of/extension or element of subspace.

This has other consequences. For example, stuff put on the inside of a Dyson sphere, as seen in ``Relics'', would fall off into the sun because the net gravitation from the sphere is zero on its interior.
Unless the Dyson Sphere's shell/"surface" had gravity generators to overcome the star's gravity and I'm guessing even the Sphere's OWN gravity. The otherside of the sphere from where one would be standing (I would assume) would cause an incredible pull on you.
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Old September 29 2008, 04:05 AM   #26
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
You'll have to pardon me as I've only a crude and basic understand of physics based off stuff I learned in high-school over 10 years ago and limited self-study.

I understand what you are saying and it "make sense" but at the same time I don't much understand how trillions of tiny particles each with miniscule gravitational pull spread out across over hundreds of thousand if not millions of miles is going to have the same gravitational effect as all of those particles in one, single, huge mass.
All the particles in that clump of mass are pulling on you in different directions, but the pulls in opposite directions cancel out, or average out, so that it all seems to be coming from a single point at the center of mass. Every agglomeration of mass, whether solid, liquid, or gas, behaves as if all its mass is concentrated in the center of its volume. That's why a person can balance on a tightrope -- as long as your center of mass is above the tightrope, it doesn't matter how much mass is out to the sides, because the CoM is where all the action is.

Besides -- we're talking about the supernova's effect on objects light-years away. At that distance, the difference between a sun's mass concentrated in a ball a million kilometers across and the same mass spread out in a cloud a billion kilometers across would be trivial. From that distance, they'd both be point sources -- just like all the stars just look like points of light to us, even though they range from smaller than the Sun to hundreds of times bigger.


And, if we're not going to invoke subspace here and just stick with gravity, we could probably surmise that, perhaps, the Trilithium Torpedo's detonation converted some of the star's mass into energy, enough of it apparently to drasticly alter the Nexus' path.
If we're not invoking subspace, it would take years for the effect to reach the Nexus. As stated above, gravity only propagates at the speed of light.


To salvage this we can invoke ``subspace effects'' which are somehow disrupted by the star's explosion and which interact strongly with the Nexus. But the dialogue actually says gravitational effects. Perhaps there's some way the two are related enough that even Data doesn't make the correction...
It's concievable by the 24th century they've discovered that whatever element of the universe "generates" gravity has a subspace component and, yeah, that effected the Nexus which could easily be infered as a disruption of/extension or element of subspace.
Heck, we know that today. Gravitation is described by Einsteinian theory as an alteration of the topology of spacetime under the influence of mass/energy. So any change in the shape of space -- or subspace -- is a gravitational effect by definition.

Besides -- in mathematics, a subspace is a lower-dimensional subset of an n-dimensional space. String theory proposes seven "curled-up" dimensions whose topology determines the laws of physics in our universe, and altering that topology could alter physical constants. Some have called these extra dimensions a subspace, and that's how I interpret Trek's subspace. And string theory also suggests that gravitons, the exchange particles of gravitation, are not confined to our four dimensions, but propagate out into the extra "subspace" dimensions, which is why gravity manifests as such a weak force (because most of its effect is leaking out into subspace). This would suggest that gravitational effects are much stronger in subspace than in normal space -- and they might propagate faster there too, if the topology is sufficiently different.


This has other consequences. For example, stuff put on the inside of a Dyson sphere, as seen in ``Relics'', would fall off into the sun because the net gravitation from the sphere is zero on its interior.
Unless the Dyson Sphere's shell/"surface" had gravity generators to overcome the star's gravity and I'm guessing even the Sphere's OWN gravity. The otherside of the sphere from where one would be standing (I would assume) would cause an incredible pull on you.
You're missing the point. The net gravitation at any point inside a uniform spherical shell of mass is zero. The pull of gravity from the far side of the sphere would be cancelled out by the pull from the near side of the sphere. No matter where you are inside the sphere, even if you're right up against its inner surface, the pulls in all directions cancel out exactly. (The closer you get to one side, the more mass there is on the opposite side pulling you away from it, but the pull from the mass on the nearer side is stronger, cancelling it out.)
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Old September 29 2008, 04:46 AM   #27
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

Gotcha. It all makes sense to me.
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Old September 29 2008, 11:52 PM   #28
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

I can't watch this movie very often as the more I see it the less I like it. There are way too many flaws in it. The whole nexus concept is weak. How is it that it sweeps near our solar system, if not through our system, every 39.2 years but no one knows anything about it in the 23rd century, let alone the 24th? We've been exploring deep space for over 200 years and we know nothing about this nexus?? It passed nearby once during Kirk's lifetime and it ended up "killing" him, yet no one thought to study it if only since the launch of the E-B? Rediculous. Not to mention, Picard and Kirk are the only ones in the nexus who decide to leave?! And why pick that moment to go to? They could've gone to so many other better times.

I would've prefered a movie about Q such as in the novel "Q-Squared", which included Trellane. Great story and would've played out well on screen.
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Old October 1 2008, 04:08 AM   #29
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

I'd like to see a Peter David Trek novel onscreen and Q-Squared or Q-in-Law would be awesome.
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Old October 4 2008, 03:09 AM   #30
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Re: Just ReWatched Generations and this bugged me...

How come Soran, Whoopie, and the others can get into the Nexus via spaceship in the beginning of the movie but by the end you have to blow up stars and stand on a mountain?
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