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Old January 3 2009, 04:47 PM   #1
Hoshi_Mayweather
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Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

A little tid-bit for some personal fan-fic and curiosity.

I vaguely recall T'Pol bringing it to Archer's attention what she felt about Archer stranding the alien captain in space. However, was there any follow-up on this in any other episodes?

Wikipedia mentions that this action has 'ramifications into the 4th season' but that could be someone's point of view...

Sidenote: As I type this it reminds me of Sisko's action from 'In the Pale Moonlight.' (I believe that was followed up in the novel, 'Hollow Men.') Even in that same DS9 episode, we 'heard' Sisko wrestling with his conscience via his report.
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Old January 3 2009, 05:23 PM   #2
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

The only "ramifications" at all, and they were small, that I remember were Archer fighting the 'demons of what he'd done' on the cliff top in "Home." I can't recall any other dialog or suggestive set-ups that would've brought more clarity to Archer about what he'd done in the Damage.

Having Archer revisit what it took to do what he did was something that I'd looked for myself from that point forward in the series because I never felt, that for such a serious action, for such a serious amount of "damage" put on Archer's psyche, that they in any way adequately dealt with those consequences. I thought they were supposed to go back for them when the mission was completed ( or did I imagine that ?? ) or at least send someone to help them. I don't remember to say definitively . Of course there could be a number of subtle things I missed, but I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything overt, and if I did, shame on me, Damage is one of my third season favorites.
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Old January 3 2009, 07:18 PM   #3
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

rhodeschroma wrote: View Post
The only "ramifications" at all, and they were small, that I remember were Archer fighting the 'demons of what he'd done' on the cliff top in "Home." I can't recall any other dialog or suggestive set-ups that would've brought more clarity to Archer about what he'd done in the Damage.

Having Archer revisit what it took to do what he did was something that I'd looked for myself from that point forward in the series because I never felt, that for such a serious action, for such a serious amount of "damage" put on Archer's psyche, that they in any way adequately dealt with those consequences. I thought they were supposed to go back for them when the mission was completed ( or did I imagine that ?? ) or at least send someone to help them. I don't remember to say definitively . Of course there could be a number of subtle things I missed, but I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything overt, and if I did, shame on me, Damage is one of my third season favorites.
The failure to deal with the emotional and psychic damage that was done to so many in the crew is one of the reasons I despise the "cliffhanger" in "Zero Hour" and the subsequent time-waster "Stormfront" -- parts one and two no less.
So much happened in S3, "Home" could easily have been a 2-3 parter:
-- Archer's guilt over stranding the aliens. His regrets over the death of Degra.
-- T'Pol mainlining trellium.
-- Hoshi being tortured (can you say post-traumatic stress?).
-- Phlox violating the Lysarrian protocols to create Sim (and then murdering him to save Trip). I'm thinking the Lyssarians might be kind of annoyed about that. And we never do find out how Tucker felt about that, either.
-- Reed (on Archer's orders) kills 3 people when he fires without warning on a Xindi communication station.
-- The Imperial Guard must have been thrilled when Shran blew his mission to take the prototype planet buster.
-- Humanity's xenophobia that got its only airing in a bar fight. And where is the resentment of the Vulcans who did nothing to help defend Earth during the second attack?
-- Trip comes home from the mission and we still don't get to see his family.
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Old January 3 2009, 08:41 PM   #4
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

It always bothered me there was never any follow-up to Damage. Even after the mission was over, I was hoping Archer would at least say to Soval or the Aquatics "By the way, I totally screwed a research ship out there... if I give you some equipment, will you get them home?"

In addition to the points above, it bothered me that Trip's grief over his sister seemed to edge out a mention early on in the series that he had a brother - no mention at all of this.

I would've liked Home to be two or three parts too... Let's see Archer having to deliver the news to over 20 families that their loved ones died saving the Earth, or something to that effect.

I think they just wanted to do far too much with not enough time. A shame really because I thought Enterprise could've rivalled DS9 for fully fleshed out stories and character developments.
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Old January 3 2009, 09:04 PM   #5
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

JiNX-01 wrote: View Post
The failure to deal with the emotional and psychic damage that was done to so many in the crew is one of the reasons I despise the "cliffhanger" in "Zero Hour" and the subsequent time-waster "Stormfront" -- parts one and two no less.
So much happened in S3, "Home" could easily have been a 2-3 parter:
-- Archer's guilt over stranding the aliens. His regrets over the death of Degra.
-- T'Pol mainlining trellium.
-- Hoshi being tortured (can you say post-traumatic stress?).
-- Phlox violating the Lysarrian protocols to create Sim (and then murdering him to save Trip). I'm thinking the Lyssarians might be kind of annoyed about that. And we never do find out how Tucker felt about that, either.
-- Reed (on Archer's orders) kills 3 people when he fires without warning on a Xindi communication station.
-- The Imperial Guard must have been thrilled when Shran blew his mission to take the prototype planet buster.
-- Humanity's xenophobia that got its only airing in a bar fight. And where is the resentment of the Vulcans who did nothing to help defend Earth during the second attack?
-- Trip comes home from the mission and we still don't get to see his family.
Don't forget the emotional damage that Mayweather suffered. Can you imagine the trauma of being on a ship for all that time and not saying or doing anything. All those times that he was ignored by his shipmates. All those away-missions he didn't get to go on. Every day he sat at his station hoping that today would be the day he would say something other than "Aye, sir" but it was not to be.
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Old January 3 2009, 09:34 PM   #6
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

jongredic wrote: View Post
I think they just wanted to do far too much with not enough time. A shame really because I thought Enterprise could've rivalled DS9 for fully fleshed out stories and character developments.
Very true...
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Old January 3 2009, 10:39 PM   #7
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

rhodeschroma wrote: View Post
I thought they were supposed to go back for them when the mission was completed ( or did I imagine that ?? ) or at least send someone to help them. I don't remember to say definitively . Of course there could be a number of subtle things I missed, but I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything overt, and if I did, shame on me, Damage is one of my third season favorites.
Other than leaving the Ilyrians some food and medical supplies, no other mention is made with respect to going back or sending help to them. That is as it should have been, I think.

In fact the only follow-up to that storyline I'd like, (or maybe I should say as part of any follow-up), is confirmation that all or most the Iliryians did indeed die before their ship reached home space. That would add gravitas to Archer's actions. His "us or them" decision is the thing upon which great societes have been built, by humans at least. I also find the thought of the oh so self-righteous, human-led Federation being partially built on space piracy to be comforting in it's familiarity.
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Old January 3 2009, 10:51 PM   #8
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

In fact the only follow-up to that storyline I'd like, (or maybe I should say as part of any follow-up), is confirmation that all or most the Iliryians did indeed die before their ship reached home space. That would add gravitas to Archer's actions. His "us or them" decision is the thing upon which great societes have been built, by humans at least. I also find the thought of the oh so self-righteous, human-led Federation being partially built on space piracy to be comforting in it's familiarity.
Great point. That would be almost Shakespearean in its tragedy. And it would have been awesome to see all the fallout of that, if it had been done well.
I always feel vaguely embarrassed by the slick and dismissive treatment Archer's character was given in "Home". Is he really so shallow that getting laid once or twice will put to rest all those demons? It would have been nice if The B&B had not shied away from a real opportunity for drama and character development.

And I love the point about not ever once meeting any of Trip's family.
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Old January 3 2009, 11:48 PM   #9
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

Bak_and_Blue wrote: View Post
In fact the only follow-up to that storyline I'd like, (or maybe I should say as part of any follow-up), is confirmation that all or most the Iliryians did indeed die before their ship reached home space. That would add gravitas to Archer's actions. His "us or them" decision is the thing upon which great societes have been built, by humans at least. I also find the thought of the oh so self-righteous, human-led Federation being partially built on space piracy to be comforting in it's familiarity.
Great point. That would be almost Shakespearean in its tragedy. And it would have been awesome to see all the fallout of that, if it had been done well.
I always feel vaguely embarrassed by the slick and dismissive treatment Archer's character was given in "Home". Is he really so shallow that getting laid once or twice will put to rest all those demons? It would have been nice if The B&B had not shied away from a real opportunity for drama and character development.
Too, given that the UFP had yet to be created, it would have been a good 'learning point' for Archer and crew (and other vessels).
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Old January 4 2009, 12:06 AM   #10
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

jongredic wrote: View Post
I think they just wanted to do far too much with not enough time. A shame really because I thought Enterprise could've rivalled DS9 for fully fleshed out stories and character developments.
Actually, I think one problem was they used filler episodes in S3 that could have easily been dropped in favor of bringing the Xindi arc to an end well before the season finale. Here are seven episodes that, IMO, added far too little -- or nothing -- to the mission that could have been canned:
Extinction: all this one contributed is Archer's idiotic decision to preserve a mutagenic virus aboard the ship (despite the extreme dangers from anomalies messing up systems all over the place).
Exile: Nice to see Linda get something to do, but what the crew got from the alien was so minimal, why waste a whole episode on it?
Rajiin: Sets up a bioweapon threat that could have been handled in 2 minutes during any scene involving the Xindi council.
Carpenter Street: Drop Rajiin and you don't need this one either.
Doctor's Orders: Rips off premise and most of the plot of the VOY episode "One" and adds absolutely NOTHING to the mission.
Hatchery: All they got out of this was the insectoid shuttle and they could have incorporated that into almost any other episode.
North Star: I kind of like the idea of this episode -- The Big Three were hot in their Wild West costumes -- but it made absolutely no sense to me to have Archer take a couple of days off to play cowboys and Skagarans in the middle of this "time is of the essence" mission. Would have worked just as well if they had stumbled across the planet during the opening teaser of, say, "Anomaly" and despite the crew's curiosity, Archer orders they continue on their mission and they'll stop on the way home if they survive.

This would have freed up plenty of time for a decent homecoming arc and a proper set-up for the season finale. Want to end the TCW? Now you have some time to do something that makes sense and still do an intelligent job of setting up a cliffhanger that doesn't involve Trek Nazis!
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Old January 4 2009, 12:14 AM   #11
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

I liked the Space Nazis. Without them we would have never had the Cute Cuddly Alien Space Nazi Summer of Love™!!!




Good times, good times!!
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Old January 4 2009, 12:33 AM   #12
rhodeschroma
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

JiNX-01 wrote: View Post
The failure to deal with the emotional and psychic damage that was done to so many in the crew is one of the reasons I despise the "cliffhanger" in "Zero Hour" and the subsequent time-waster "Stormfront" -- parts one and two no less.
So much happened in S3, "Home" could easily have been a 2-3 parter:
-- Archer's guilt over stranding the aliens. His regrets over the death of Degra.
-- T'Pol mainlining trellium.
-- Hoshi being tortured (can you say post-traumatic stress?).
-- Phlox violating the Lysarrian protocols to create Sim (and then murdering him to save Trip). I'm thinking the Lyssarians might be kind of annoyed about that. And we never do find out how Tucker felt about that, either.
-- Reed (on Archer's orders) kills 3 people when he fires without warning on a Xindi communication station.
-- The Imperial Guard must have been thrilled when Shran blew his mission to take the prototype planet buster.
-- Humanity's xenophobia that got its only airing in a bar fight. And where is the resentment of the Vulcans who did nothing to help defend Earth during the second attack?
-- Trip comes home from the mission and we still don't get to see his family.
I 100% agree with everything you stated. More needed to be addressed to fully put into scope one incident (the piracy) as a series of other major incidents that impacted different crew members in different ways.)) I took the easy way out by just staying in the Archer box.

Stormfront did nothing to address what happened to the crew as a whole, and as individuals, and Home was woefully inadequate in dealing with the sheer magnitude of stresses put upon each person on the NX-01 throughout that mission. These people had been thru so much, that by the end of zero hour, they deserved to get home (yeah, life's not always fair, or well written) - and gotten to the business of healing - not to a tired set-up involving alien nazi's and all the inconsistencies there... If I were on the NX-01 - I think I would've done an equal double take to what most of the viewers did - it made no sense whatsoever (and I still want to know why the Aquatic vessel would leave Enterprise without realizing and assisting them knowing the stars were out of alignment and they were all 200 years in the past-give or take. They surely knew in E2 when they were that far out of sync in the flashback to their exiting that wormhole.) Yeah - they had to wrap up that wonderful story device called the temporal cold war some way or some how, but .......... I'll stop... Sorry for the rambling. I'll get back OT.



Off your list, JINX, the one's that hit me the hardest at first read:

#1 - Not adequately dealing with T-Pol's trellium addiction was a huge missed opportunity and an unforgivable story telling exclusion IMHO (I will never forget watching the end of Azati Prime and seeing the "high" t'pol in command of the NX-01 as it's getting pounded. Her mouth was shut and she's staring off into the fires that had broken out on the bridge. Arguably in her mind, maybe she thought they were toast by then, but what about going down fighting? No orders, no nothing. I realize we didn't know, for sure, yet (as viewers, we get the luxury of looking at it in retrospect - watching Damage and then realizing we had a drug addicted captain in Azati Prime during the show's worst battle) about her emotional problems and their cause - therefore - wouldn't it have been strong story to look at her drug influenced actions and deal with how they impacted both her personal relationships (not just with Trip) and command decisions. You never just 'get away' from such a bad drug addiction as she was saddled with and have as little repercussions as she did. Yes - she had emotions she now had to more fully acknowledge, but recovery is a bi*ch, and yes, your friends and shipmates of 3 years would notice the downhill spiral, the rock bottom, and the climb to recovery. Phlox's magic 3 day relief elixer from the shakes and the physical toll that stuff took on her was a cop out. We all know, from the much more realistic portrayals of drug addiction on other shows, what the sequence of events is (or, if you've had to deal with it in your own life in some way, either as an observer or the person who's addicted) But, we did get to continually putting Trip thru the ringer - carrying on the relation that arguably started because of the drugs to begin with... Yeah, we knew what was happening, but the characters never got to turn the tables on T'Pol and confront her in any way.

#2 - Hoshi's dual torture at the hands of Dolim (Dolum?) and then the degree to which Archer pushed and pushed her as the mission became critical. (Archer needed her skills, but, man, Hoshi got emotionally burnt twice back to back.) When she got "home" I didn't expect her to have the parasites removed, get a smile from Dr. Phlox, and then go about getting some Madame Changs (and us, as viewers, see nothing related to what that woman went thru beyond that.) If she survived both those incidents with as little ramifications as she did - hat's off to Hoshi - until 10 years later when it all comes back because of some other trigger.
I guess Hoshi didn't warrant the screen time to explore the awful nightmares, waking fears, etc. she had to have been going thru.

#3 - Trip never having the opportunity to show, on screen, his reactions to Sim and his creaton - to save his own life. Not to mention to contemplate what Phlox and Archer went thru by making the decision in the first place. I just wrote about this in another thread, so I won't do more here, but another missed opportunity.

---

Sorry about my mistake regarding Archer saying he'd go back for the stranded ship - I must've had hoped that Archer would've put them on his list of things to do when ENT was safe - so I suppose I imagined those lines of dialogue. Though, as Bak_and_Blue stated, after thinking about it, IF they would've addressed what you posited, gblews, thru strong writing, not just a couple sexual encounters with Captain Hernandez, I very much like your scenario better. When they got to "Home"- they/we should've been afforded a 3 episode arc, in my opinion, and really got down to some serious exploring - - of our characters and what all that time in the expanse did to them. Shame there's virtually nothing for Travis to explore along with them. Shran's got more than Travis to dig into - story wise.
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Old January 4 2009, 02:45 AM   #13
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

rhodeschroma wrote: View Post
(I will never forget watching the end of Azati Prime and seeing the "high" t'pol in command of the NX-01 as it's getting pounded. Her mouth was shut and she's staring off into the fires that had broken out on the bridge. Arguably in her mind, maybe she thought they were toast by then, but what about going down fighting? No orders, no nothing.
Just for the record because this doesn't have much bearing on your overall point, propulsion systems were down and all weapons were offline as a result of the attack. About the only order T'Pol could have given at that point was, 'abandon ship'.

But I guess it could be argued that that was the one order she should have given but couldn't, once again, arguably because she was frozen in some kind of emotional trance because of the damage to her neural pathways from Trellium use.
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Old January 4 2009, 03:10 AM   #14
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

gblews wrote: View Post
rhodeschroma wrote: View Post
(I will never forget watching the end of Azati Prime and seeing the "high" t'pol in command of the NX-01 as it's getting pounded. Her mouth was shut and she's staring off into the fires that had broken out on the bridge. Arguably in her mind, maybe she thought they were toast by then, but what about going down fighting? No orders, no nothing.
Just for the record because this doesn't have much bearing on your overall point, propulsion systems were down and all weapons were offline as a result of the attack. About the only order T'Pol could have given at that point was, 'abandon ship'.

But I guess it could be argued that that was the one order she should have given but couldn't, once again, arguably because she was frozen in some kind of emotional trance because of the damage to her neural pathways from Trellium use.
I don't recall there even being an "abandon ship" protocol. They only had two shuttlepods. I don't remember any mention of escape pods and if there were any, it would have just been more target practice for the reptilians. Still, T'Pol's place was on the bridge before the attack. She knew what was at stake and still she abandoned her duty to the crew, the ship and Earth -- which was to ensure the ship's safety in case Archer failed. Trellium had elevated her emotions to the point that she couldn't even muster the level of control humans have in a crisis.
And yet, when Phlox learns of her situation he INSANELY keeps her secret from Tucker, who should have been informed so he could put her on medical leave and take charge and from Archer, who will leave her in charge when he undertakes to steal the warp core from the aliens in Damage.

I wonder if Phlox had a death wish.
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Old January 4 2009, 05:24 AM   #15
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Re: Archer's Piracy in 'Damage'

I think that, as a package, her silence in "Azati Prime" (which, true, there weren't escape pods, and no abandon ship protocol, and even I initially stated "perhaps she just knew they were toast") - coupled with other, less critical actions, in retrospect - even going back further that just "Azati Prime" - add up to a seriously compromised, and definitely not a command-worthy/stable officer. She's Vulcan and has a fairly "predictable" emotional track record. That, coupled with Phlox letting her continue as if nothing has happened, after her revealing her condition to him in 'Damage', made the issue all the more critical to address in some other manner later in the season or series. For the doctor, knowing how trellium had degraded her neural pathways, causing her to lose most of her emotional control, as well as deal with the common physiological symptoms associated with withdrawl, and then ALLOWING HER to TAKE COMMAND.---- *It's hard for me to believe that a magic shot from phlox eliminated all the withdrawl symptoms she was experiencing, just leaving her with somewhat less control of emotions ---* WOW. There's a gigantic second from me - JINX-01 - what did he have - a death wish??? Phlox was pissed when he read that screen showing the damage that had been done to her brain. There's no argument it was not a minor thing, or something that could be brushed off with a hypospray. He even emphasized how long it could take to recover from and that the neural pathway degradation, if ever.

Patient/doctor confidentiality is one thing, but sweeping a debilitating condition under the rug, for lack of a better description, and allowing things to continue status quo, elevated my disrespect for him greatly (I was indifferent about the Phlox character until season 3, but he gave me some pause during that Xindi mission.) He tried to play the friend card rather than the responsible doctor; and thru that decision, placed the entire crew in jeopardy. No question, any doctor, whether in the modern armed forces, or in the ST Universe, would've relieved the first officer immediately if faced with T'Pol's affliction. It's beyond the suspension of reality I'm willing to take for ST, other entertainment, or real life. Are we really supposed to believe, that another officer, clearheaded, sober, and not neurologically damaged, is less capable than a debilitated T'Pol. T'Pol is a strong officer, but not in the condition she was in.

Maybe I've been unfortunate enough to have a few close friends go thru a serious drug addition, one of which particularly reminded me of T'Pol's particular affliction - and that has me taking a much stronger stand on the issue than I may take on some other issue, but i can't just let it go that T'Pol was never a) relieved of duty at any point b) confronted by anyone else in the crew c) even Trip, who was treated like crap because of her emotional losses of control, never got real answers d) there was nothing written in later stories to deal with recovery.

Man - Travis vs. detoxing and neurologically degraded T'Pol for the center seat - I'd even write Travis in a few lines and allow T'Pol some needed and necessary recuperative time, regardless of the excuse (or whether the writers wanted to reveal to the crew the real reason for her health problem) that was made to Archer as to why her situation was necessitated.
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