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Old October 1 2008, 12:23 AM   #46
KevinK
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

Hard to believe now, but when Valerie and I married each other 27 years ago (almost 28 now) polls indicated that the majority of Americans did not believe we should be allowed to wed. We were able to get married because less than a decade before that the Supreme Court decided that the approval of others was not a prerequisite for marriage and struck down the last laws against racially blended families.
(With apologies to all our non-USofA members, but I'm going to get a little nationalistic here.)
All people must have equal rights under the law -- that equality is the fundamental principle on which our country was founded, it is the source from which all of our laws must flow. It's what our Constitution is all about. You cannot try to deny or even limit the rights of another human being without violating the very core of what it means to be an American.
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Old October 1 2008, 12:41 AM   #47
Samuel T. Cogley
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

KevinK wrote: View Post
We were able to get married because less than a decade before that the Supreme Court decided that the approval of others was not a prerequisite for marriage and struck down the last laws against racially blended families.
I'm guessing that a lot of the younger crowd isn't aware of just how recently miscegenation laws were still in place in the United States.

These laws banned inter-racial marriage, and sometimes, inter-racial sex, although they were primarily focused on keeping the 'other' races away from the whites.

For those of you dating or married to someone of a different race, you may not have been able to do so as recently as 40 years ago.
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Old October 1 2008, 12:49 AM   #48
davidant32
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

the Dagman wrote: View Post
These two men getting married HURTS NO ONE.
It hurts a lot of people by stepping on their conservative value system and how they believe a country founded on Christian morals and ideals should not, to be blunt, legalize sin.

KevinK wrote: View Post
All people must have equal rights under the law -- that equality is the fundamental principle on which our country was founded, it is the source from which all of our laws must flow.
We must also remember that our country, again, was founded under a Christian mindset by Christian forefathers.

Now before anyone mentions No State Religion, let me say this: that phrase was intended so that the government, or monarchy, would not be officially alligned with the Catholic (or any other) Church, preventing the oppression of other religions. It was not meant to say that religion must be ignored altogether when deciding laws.

After all, that is why we live in a democracy. I'm as tolerant as the next person, but I just think that multiple sides of this issue need to be viewed, and not just the bashing of the gay-bashers.
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Old October 1 2008, 02:38 AM   #49
Steve Roby
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

davidant32 wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post
These two men getting married HURTS NO ONE.
It hurts a lot of people by stepping on their conservative value system and how they believe a country founded on Christian morals and ideals should not, to be blunt, legalize sin.
What, like adultery? Not illegal. Taking the Lord's name in vain? Not illegal. What's the big deal about something that didn't even make it into the Ten Commandments?
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Old October 1 2008, 02:42 AM   #50
Brian
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

KevinK wrote: View Post
All people must have equal rights under the law -- that equality is the fundamental principle on which our country was founded, it is the source from which all of our laws must flow. It's what our Constitution is all about. You cannot try to deny or even limit the rights of another human being without violating the very core of what it means to be an American.
Exactly! The very thought of passing an Amendment to the Constitution which does nothing but limit, restrict or remove rights is abhorrent to me. It flies in the face of the purpose of the Constitution, which is to protect and guarantee rights.
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Old October 1 2008, 04:12 AM   #51
KevinK
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

davidant32 wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post
These two men getting married HURTS NO ONE.
It hurts a lot of people by stepping on their conservative value system and how they believe a country founded on Christian morals and ideals should not, to be blunt, legalize sin.
In 1987 the pastor of Grace Baptist Church (http://www.gracenc.org/) not only refused to let me enroll our daughter in their "Christian" school, he counseled me to consider whether or not I was actually married in the eyes of God. If I take your position as you seem to have stated it, the fact that my wife and I stepped on the conservative value system of these people and were engaged in the sin of race mixing means that I must repent, disown my children and abandon my wife. Because, if I understand you correctly, the lack of regard I showed for their conservative beliefs is of far greater importance than any oath I swore before God or my commitment to my partner in life.

KevinK wrote: View Post
All people must have equal rights under the law -- that equality is the fundamental principle on which our country was founded, it is the source from which all of our laws must flow.
We must also remember that our country, again, was founded under a Christian mindset by Christian forefathers.
The founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Read their writings. They believed God created the universe and ordained an order to the world (with white men in charge) then sat back to see what we would do with it.
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Old October 1 2008, 06:47 AM   #52
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

As a gay man, and one who was married in 1993 (okay, it didn't last, but still), I'm both heartened by the support and dismayed by the objections to George and Brad's marriage that I've seen in this thread. Happiness that harms nobody should not be subjected to legally sanctioned disapproval. Nobody should be a second-class citizen in this day and age, told whom they may and may not marry, so long as their partner is a consenting adult.

Oh, and just because I can -- here's a little picture taken about a month ago at Dragon*Con, just prior to the Rainbow Flag party, where George and Brad were the guests of honour:



(That's Brad in the white shirt, and I'm the guy on the far right.)
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Old October 1 2008, 06:49 AM   #53
TheOSRemastered
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

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Old October 1 2008, 07:01 AM   #54
TorontoTrekker
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

TheOSRemastered wrote: View Post
Care to provide a little context for that?
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Old October 1 2008, 08:07 AM   #55
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

TheOSRemastered wrote: View Post
I doubt you'll last here as long as your previous incarnation, but quit trolling up my forum. If you have something to say say it respectfully and decently.

One warning for trolling.
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Old October 1 2008, 11:23 AM   #56
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

That's a great picture TorontoTrekker!
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Old October 1 2008, 03:57 PM   #57
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

davidant32 wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post
These two men getting married HURTS NO ONE.
It hurts a lot of people by stepping on their conservative value system and how they believe a country founded on Christian morals and ideals should not, to be blunt, legalize sin.
I beg to differ. How is not being allowed to walk all over the civil rights of a minority group hurting someone's belief system? It's not telling anyone what they can or can't believe. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that it actually would reinforce their Christian morals, by holding up the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" principle.

If people are going to hold up one particular passage of Leviticus as literal, why not hold up the whole thing? Which means incest and adultery are right up there with homosexuality. Cheat on your spouse? You're just as much an abomination as a homosexual couple. You can't steal from your neighbor (the old "borrowed yard clippers and never gave them back" scenario?). Tats? Forget it. A linen/wool mixture jacket? No can do.

I'd give these folks a lot more credence if they actually lived by the entire book, instead of cherry-picking the passages that suit their particular corner of the belief system.

KevinK wrote: View Post
All people must have equal rights under the law -- that equality is the fundamental principle on which our country was founded, it is the source from which all of our laws must flow.
We must also remember that our country, again, was founded under a Christian mindset by Christian forefathers.
And I'd argue that those Christian forefathers were blatantly violating Romans 13. How can a country be founded under a Christian mindset when its existence violates some of the very written tenets of that faith?

Now before anyone mentions No State Religion, let me say this: that phrase was intended so that the government, or monarchy, would not be officially alligned with the Catholic (or any other) Church, preventing the oppression of other religions. It was not meant to say that religion must be ignored altogether when deciding laws.
Okay, if we're going to take religion into account when deciding laws, we need to also take into account Judaism, Islam, Paganism, Scientology, Shinto, Zoroastrians, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few here. Oh, and let's not forget the Agnostics and the Atheists. Should they be ignored when deciding laws?

After all, that is why we live in a democracy. I'm as tolerant as the next person, but I just think that multiple sides of this issue need to be viewed, and not just the bashing of the gay-bashers.
I'm not bashing the gay-bashers. I'm trying to get them to think about what they're doing and how easily it could be turned on them.
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Old October 1 2008, 05:52 PM   #58
T'Bonz
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

TheOSRemastered wrote: View Post
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Old October 1 2008, 07:33 PM   #59
Bad Bishop
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

Kira's Mummy wrote: View Post
Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post
I really see nothing wrong with two people doing something that makes them both happy as long as they are not killing, stealing from, or hurting another person by doing it. These two men getting married HURTS NO ONE...
And they can count on my vote to defeat Prop 8.
They can count on my vote in favor of Prop 8.

Maybe you're not looking ahead far enough. Consider the legal ramifications of same-sex marriage. It means that adoption will change. Heterosexual couples will no longer be favored (all other things being equal) over gay couples when it comes to adopting children. Do you think this is best for children?
Do you have any proof that will happen? I don't see why gay couples would get preference.
It's already happened in Massachusetts. They legalized gay marriage, so then it became illegal for all adoption agencies, including church-run services, to favor heterosexual married couples over homosexual "married" couples when it comes to placing foster children in homes.
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Old October 1 2008, 07:41 PM   #60
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Re: Takei And Altman Wed

So they aren't getting preference, they're getting a fair chance.
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