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Old September 18 2008, 03:12 PM   #76
Lindley
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
Again, a thread full of people who've convinced themselves that if everyone would just give him a chance they'd fall in love with his work, like it's some undeniable law of nature.
Well, also a thread full of people (well, me) who used to avoid his stuff because it sounded silly; and then "just gave him a chance", and now love 90% of it.

Is it really so surprising that I might think I'm not unique in my reactions?

Explain me then; I've watched plenty of Buffy, Angel, and all of Firefly. The first annoys me to no end, the second is watchable about half of the time the time (it's easily the best of the three, especially the broader arc stories), and the latter was good for one viewing and I could care less if I ever watched any of it again.
Hmm, okay. With Buffy, you may have picked up on the annoying Love-Angst factor. It does get in the way whenever it shows up. The show is strong enough to keep one watching despite that, but if your sampling of episodes was unlucky, I could see it being a real turn-off. Besides which, the early part of the show was a bit on the cheesy side. Not in a bad way, but it certainly didn't reveal its dramatic potential until part way through season 2.

I agree about Angel being the best of them. Firefly was better episode-for-episode, but it just didn't last long enough to build up as cool an overall story. As with all of Whedon's stuff, the standalones were fairly weak story-wise, pretty much just hack-and-slashes, but the character interaction and evolution makes them worthwhile.

And speaking of Firefly, have you *tried* rewatching any of it? Not saying you have to, but for my own part, I didn't really start to pick up the nuances until I did.

As well, I do not think he's that appealing to mainstream audiences because I think most people can only take sci-fi and fantasy seriously when it itself is largely serious, or at least attempting to be. Cool, serious, lots of big FX..... to be honest I think a lot of people are personally embarrassed to watch everything from LOTR to Star Wars, they just manage to justify it to themselves in some way. But Quirky Sc-Fi/Fantasy? Most people wouldn't be bothered.

This isn't an indictment of anyone's personal opinion of his show, I'm not telling anyone they're stupid for like his stuff. This is really about Whedon's track record with a broader audience (not so good).
You're not wrong there.
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Last edited by Lindley; September 18 2008 at 04:38 PM.
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Old September 18 2008, 04:09 PM   #77
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Go back and listen to Joss and Tim's comments about the cancellation of Firefly (they're on the DVD). They pretty much state, in bald-faced terms, that FOX used the ratings as an excuse to justify cancelling a series that they didn't even understand from the moment they first greenlit it.
Oh, well if it was on a DVD commentary it MUST be true. Whedon wouldn't have a biased opinion about this, not at all.

I love how people hink that Fox is so fucking terrible to him when they keep giving him money. "They wanted the show to fail before they green lit it" is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. What probably REALLY happened was that they loved the initial concept (enough to give him millions to make it) and then the finished product and ratings didn't meet their expectations so they cancelled it.
Here's the bare facts concerning the Firefly situation:
* 20th Century FOX Television asked Joss to give them another show based on the success of BtVS and ANGEL, and Joss gave the FOX Network execs the idea for Firefly. It wasn't what they were expecting, but they let him go ahead with the idea and write and shoot a pilot (the result was the episode "Serenity").

* When Joss and Tim Minear gave the FOX execs the final cut of "Serenity", they (the FOX execs) didn't 'get' it, and asked Joss and Tim to write and shoot a second pilot. The result was "The Train Job".

* When Firefly finally went on the air, FOX aired "The Train Job" as the first episode, despite Joss and Tim hoping they'd air "Serenity" first.

* After the series premiered, FOX didn't adequately promote it, and kept pre-empting it. They also kept airing the episodes out of order.

* Because of the pre-emptions and lack of promotion, the series's ratings were less than what the network wanted.

* Because the ratings were low, the network cancelled the series.

Take a look at those facts, and tell me that there's any other interpretation to be gleaned other than the FOX execs using the ratings as an excuse to cancel a series which their previous behavior - while it was on the air and before it hit the air - indicated that they didn't entirely understand it, but wanted another series from their proven 'hitmaker' regardless.

Edited to clarify something: I'm not one of those people who thinks you're crazy if you don't like Joss Whedon or the stories he tells. I only have problems with the non-Joss fans when they exhibit an attitude of 'well, his shows all got cancelled or sucked, so he therefore sucks, and the people who like him create scapegoats to justify why he's the greatest thing ever'.
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Last edited by DigificWriter; September 18 2008 at 04:41 PM.
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Old September 18 2008, 04:33 PM   #78
Lindley
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

I should also mention that I have no problem discussing the shortcomings of Joss's work; however, I will object to blanket statements which are patently untrue.
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Old September 18 2008, 04:58 PM   #79
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Me, I love Whedon's work, and consider him in an elite group of creators whose work I will check out just because their name is there.

I recognized he has his detractors, too. I'm not going to dismiss them as "not getting it", but I do object to their characterizations of his fans as mindless cultists and the like.
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Old September 18 2008, 05:08 PM   #80
Lindley
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

You know, it occurs to me that I might have listened to Dave Barry. He was going on about how great Buffy the Vampire Slayer was years before I ever decided to give it a look-see.

Suppose it goes to show that no matter how much you respect a source, if your own skepticism is sufficient, you won't follow their recommendations.
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Old September 18 2008, 11:06 PM   #81
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Firefly failed because it was a boring pile of junk. And considering I watched it at a time before I wisened up on Joss Whedon, and that the real quality of BtVS and Angel didn't come from him, but one David Greenwalt who kept him ground and focused on the good stuff, you can understand what this means. At the time I was one of the guy's greatest fans, during the first show I kept watching my watch whether it was getting close to be over already. Ten minutes into the second I had done the same twice over, by the third watch I realized; these is boring crap, I'm not wasting my time watching boring crap, and turned it off.

His comics work is no better, and Buffy S8 is so horrible it isn't even funny. The main characters that are supposed to be heroes are really villains the way they're written. Villains that need to be annihilated from where I'm sitting.

The result being; I can't care less about any Joss Whedon project, and won't be watching. No matter how much I love Eliza Dushku, I won't be surprised this won't reached mid-season, nor will I shed a tear.
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Old September 18 2008, 11:27 PM   #82
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why
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Old September 18 2008, 11:38 PM   #83
3D Master
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Ethros wrote: View Post
^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why
Firefly is boring crap, I never said the same about the rest.

And no, I did NOT keep reading them. Six or seven issues and I quit.

I happen to be a Buffy fan, you see, EARLY Buffy fan, back when she and her compatriots were still heroes. So I happen to be part of several Buffy pages and saw the previews of Buffy. For a moment there, in the beginning of the book, it seemed like early Buffy was back, and the horror of S6 and especially S7 was behind us.

But it soon degenerated into even worse piles of crap, so I quit.

However, as I'm part of those Buffy pages, I do regularly come across more previews and spoilers, and when I check them out, I find to my consternation its getting worse by the issue, and I thank god I quit reading that crap.
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Old September 19 2008, 12:17 AM   #84
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Lindley wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?
The no-aliens rule was a frakkin great idea, tho. BSG has also benefitted from it - keeps the gimmickry level down.
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Old September 19 2008, 12:39 AM   #85
stj
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

The level of upset seems excessive. Banks are going broke, so a lowly TV network might want to pinch pennies and shut production while the cheap writing part is under way.

But of course it might be that Fox is ordering retools because they think there's something wrong with the show. The thing is, there's already reason to think the suits might be right. The whole premise is already shaky---ordinary money buys lots and lots of prostitutes ready, willing and able to live out all sorts of fantasies. But if the Dollhouse process does more, why are the Dollhouse owners farting around with a high tech bordello, instead of doing that other, probably more lucrative, stuff?
For example if the FBI guy investigating the Dollhouse is himself a Doll (the likely import of dark hints,) why don't Dolls infiltrate something more significant than an after hours vice squad?

Or to put it another way, Eliza Dushku is the star. Therefore the series is supposed to be about her. But that trailer suggests that the interesting question of whether Dushku's character is a Happy Hooker or a White Slave is going to be told by a minor character! That is, if it even gets told. It may just be put out there, to lie unused. Sidelining such a key plot point is dodging the drama.

On the other hand, it is not a bit obvious that this means the Fox suits already have the knives out for high brow stuff they are too stupid to understand. It seems to me that studio executives cry all the way to the bank when they are criticized as boobs. Writers on the other hand sell their reputation. When a Whedon or a Wolfe screws up, the executives often seem willing to soften the blow by letting it be understood that the product wasn't bad but too high brow. Believe that one with discretion.
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Old September 19 2008, 01:58 AM   #86
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

How can everyone be judging this show before it even comes out? Thats like saying you think a certain food is gross but you've never tried it! Lets have a little Faith (pun intended) in Joss. The only thing I find weird is that he didn't move this show over to another network were it may have had a chance to live. Maybe CW because almost everything else on that channel sucks.

I really hope this show is going to be on par with Buffy and Angel. This may be Joss's last chance to make a show.
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Old September 19 2008, 09:34 AM   #87
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

3D Master wrote: View Post
His comics work is no better, and Buffy S8 is so horrible it isn't even funny. The main characters that are supposed to be heroes are really villains the way they're written. Villains that need to be annihilated from where I'm sitting.
What have they done that's especially villainous or worthy of annihilation?
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Old September 19 2008, 10:42 AM   #88
JoeZhang
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Ethros wrote: View Post
^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why
Firefly is boring crap, I never said the same about the rest.
After hearing so much about it - I tried a few episodes of firefly last night - I thought it was average. I'd would have watched it if I has nothing to do but I wouldn't go out of my way to find it.
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Old September 19 2008, 12:48 PM   #89
Lindley
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

That "tipping point" I mentioned before. You aren't there yet. You may never be. But, if you do reach it....

And considering I watched it at a time before I wisened up on Joss Whedon, and that the real quality of BtVS and Angel didn't come from him, but one David Greenwalt who kept him ground and focused on the good stuff, you can understand what this means.
It's certainly true that Joss works better as a team than solo. On Firefly he had Tim Minear, whose subsequent efforts have been pretty good as well (if equally short-lived). Serenity didn't have Minear's input and it suffers for it. (Ben Edlund also had some input into Firefly.)
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Old September 19 2008, 01:49 PM   #90
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

amdmiami wrote: View Post
The only thing I find weird is that he didn't move this show over to another network were it may have had a chance to live. Maybe CW because almost everything else on that channel sucks.
Why are you under the impression that he had a choice of where to make his next show?

Lke I said up thread, it doesn't appear any of the other big networks are chomping at the bit for him to develop a show for them, which is why I don't get all of the vile hatred for Fox.
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