RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 144,937
Posts: 5,700,684
Members: 25,695
Currently online: 391
Newest member: Sos

TrekToday headlines

Wheaton To Introduce Beer
By: T'Bonz on May 6

Wheaton In Dark Matter
By: T'Bonz on May 6

Star Trek: The Next Generation Commemorative Coins
By: T'Bonz on May 5

Star Trek IV: What Might Have Been
By: T'Bonz on May 5

Russ Explains Star Wars Day
By: T'Bonz on May 4

New Seekers Book Covers Debut
By: T'Bonz on May 4

Whitney Passes
By: T'Bonz on May 4

Retro Review: Phage
By: Michelle on May 2

The Next Generation Shower Curtain
By: T'Bonz on May 1

Burton Part of Roots Reboot
By: T'Bonz on May 1


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy All your nerd stuff goes here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 17 2008, 10:27 PM   #61
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
(Also not bashing Lindley, one of the most clearheaded Browncoats you'll find out there.)
Make no mistake, I'm as batshit as any of the others in my own way. I'm writing a game mod based on the thing, fer cryin' out loud.

But I just find it's a lot easier to get your point across when you don't sound like a raving luny in the process, that's all.
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2008, 10:33 PM   #62
Bob The Skutter
Complete Arse Cleft
 
Bob The Skutter's Avatar
 
Location: Kernow
View Bob The Skutter's Twitter Profile
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Lindley wrote: View Post
CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
(Also not bashing Lindley, one of the most clearheaded Browncoats you'll find out there.)
Make no mistake, I'm as batshit as any of the others in my own way. I'm writing a game mod based on the thing, fer cryin' out loud.

But I just find it's a lot easier to get your point across when you don't sound like a raving luny in the process, that's all.
I don't think you're any different than a lot, even most, Browncoats. It's just the loony ones make more noise, which is what always happens, fringe views drown out the quieter sane ones.
__________________
“Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom.”
Terry Pratchett
Bob The Skutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2008, 10:41 PM   #63
Othello
Commodore
 
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

What the heck is there that is hard to follow?? Sheesh...

My take.. Just another inevitable screwing by Fox of Joss Whedon. They didn't "get" Firefly and don't wanna get Dollhouse. Total asshats.
Othello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2008, 10:43 PM   #64
Othello
Commodore
 
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
there have been concerns raised inside the network about the fundamental underpinnings of the show.
Specifically, because the heroine of the show, played by Eliza Dushku, has no free will or ability to do much beyond what she’s told to do, viewers might find it hard to root for her.
From the first time I read this premise, my initial thought was similar: where's the Why-Should-I-Care factor in all this? The lead character must want something, and I must care about her enough that I want to see her get what she wants. Then the story is all about her overcoming the obstacles while the audience roots for her. That's the underlying structure of all stories, at least all pop-culture or reasonably popular stories (discounting just the arty/experimental stuff that never makes it to TV anyway). Without this, there's no reason for the audience to tune in.

The concept of Dolls themselves is not at all too "out there." You just have a lead character Doll who is struggling to become self-aware and what she wants is to break free and no longer be enslaved. The audience can certainly root for that! Then the problem becomes, how long can you extend that premise in a TV series...

If the Dolls are voluntarily being enslaved, then the Who-Cares factor is a problem. She brought it on herself, I have no sympathy for her plight. Also, there's a logic problem: who'd volunteer for that?

Hello, you ever see the Bourne movies?? VERY similar concept but not as versitile.
Othello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2008, 11:02 PM   #65
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Amnesia?

I think it's more like Rohypnol and serial raping.

How would you feel if "things" happened to you while you were sleeping?
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2008, 11:41 PM   #66
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Hello, you ever see the Bourne movies??
Yup, I enjoyed them too, but three movies (that's equivalent to six TV episodes) is about as much as you can stretch that premise. Six episodes won't get you very far on TV.

Also Matt Damon is very hot. Dollhouse is crippled by its lack of any hot guys in the cast. Massive oversight: they need at least one. A Matt-Damon-level hotty would buy them a bit of slack from me.

I wonder if Fox started getting panicky when they saw the season premiere ratings for T:SCC and Prison Break? They're gonna need a mid-season hit, the way things are going, so they're starting to intefer with Dollhouse. Fringe started off weak, and perhaps House can shore up the ratings, but next week will tell the tale.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 01:49 AM   #67
FordSVT
Vice Admiral
 
FordSVT's Avatar
 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Go back and listen to Joss and Tim's comments about the cancellation of Firefly (they're on the DVD). They pretty much state, in bald-faced terms, that FOX used the ratings as an excuse to justify cancelling a series that they didn't even understand from the moment they first greenlit it.
Oh, well if it was on a DVD commentary it MUST be true. Whedon wouldn't have a biased opinion about this, not at all.

I love how people hink that Fox is so fucking terrible to him when they keep giving him money. "They wanted the show to fail before they green lit it" is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. What probably REALLY happened was that they loved the initial concept (enough to give him millions to make it) and then the finished product and ratings didn't meet their expectations so they cancelled it.

Quite honestly, and I've got so much shit for saying this in the past but I'll say it again anyway, Whedon has a very specific writing style that appeals to a very specific segment of the audience that simply doesn't understand that. They think he's Shakespeare and anyone who disagrees doesn't "get" him. When it comes to Whedon and his various projects, it's never WHEDON'S fault they fail, its some executive somewhere.

You know, the same "idiot" execs who keep giving him second and third and forth and fifth chances. On second thought, maybe they are idiots to keep throwing their money away like that.

If he's so great, why isn't NBC or ABC or CBC or HBO nipping at his heals to get him to create a show for them? They don't "get" him either?
__________________
-FordSVT-
FordSVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 02:17 AM   #68
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
I love how people hink that Fox is so fucking terrible to him when they keep giving him money. "They wanted the show to fail before they green lit it" is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. What probably REALLY happened was that they loved the initial concept (enough to give him millions to make it) and then the finished product and ratings didn't meet their expectations so they cancelled it.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Everything I've heard from the start suggests that Fox was definitely surprised when they saw the finished pilot----it wasn't what they were expecting. The ratings were a factor, no question, but the trouble started there.

Quite honestly, and I've got so much shit for saying this in the past but I'll say it again anyway, Whedon has a very specific writing style that appeals to a very specific segment of the audience that simply doesn't understand that.
Honestly, I don't think it's all that specific. Funny is funny. The only reason I can imagine why funny wouldn't appeal is if the container funny comes in is too unusual to get used to. Unfortunately, as I said previously, Whedon likes unusual.

There's a tipping point with all of Joss's shows---except possibly Doctor Horrible. At first, they seem strange or off-putting, and you wonder what the heck you're doing in front of the TV. But after a certain point----usually not very far in, just far enough to lose the general public----everything that seemed strange and annoying suddenly seems awesome and central, and it's as if the show suddenly "clicks".

Buffy -- the name. It bugs you at first, then you get past it and the story just flows and the characters lock you in.
Angel -- Cordelia's character. If you didn't follow her through Buffy, she's really annoying at first. Later she becomes everyone's favorite, naturally, even in her season 1 persona. (If you had seen Buffy first....well, upon first seeing Charisma in the Angel credits, my roommate shouted "YES!" I'd kept that bit a secret from him.)
Firefly -- Well, the entire concept is just bizarre. Until all the details of it start revealing themselves and suddenly it seems like the best idea ever.
Dollhouse -- Most of the concerns have been raised here. I'm hopeful we'll get the same sort of effect.

They think he's Shakespeare and anyone who disagrees doesn't "get" him.
Now that's just hyperbole. The man's good, but he's not that good.
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 03:28 AM   #69
Professor Zoom
Vice Admiral
 
Professor Zoom's Avatar
 
Location: Idealistic
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
__________________
Batman does not eat nachos.
Professor Zoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 05:19 AM   #70
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 05:43 AM   #71
Dream
Admiral
 
Dream's Avatar
 
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Torchwood had it easy. Just copy the way Angel was written and hope that people don't realize it.
Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 09:07 AM   #72
Bishbot
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Lindley wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?
I thought it sounded a brilliant idea when I first heard it (after it had already been cancelled - go figure) but it can be kind of hard to explain it to people until they actually watch the damned thing - at which point they often love it.
Bishbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 01:44 PM   #73
FordSVT
Vice Admiral
 
FordSVT's Avatar
 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Bishbot wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?
I thought it sounded a brilliant idea when I first heard it (after it had already been cancelled - go figure) but it can be kind of hard to explain it to people until they actually watch the damned thing - at which point they often love it.
It's neither an original idea nor an idea people haven't embraced in other mediums, especially sci-fi literature and to a lesser extent cartoons and comics.

Again, a thread full of people who've convinced themselves that if everyone would just give him a chance they'd fall in love with his work, like it's some undeniable law of nature.

Explain me then; I've watched plenty of Buffy, Angel, and all of Firefly. The first annoys me to no end, the second is watchable about half of the time the time (it's easily the best of the three, especially the broader arc stories), and the latter was good for one viewing and I could care less if I ever watched any of it again. As well, I do not think he's that appealing to mainstream audiences because I think most people can only take sci-fi and fantasy seriously when it itself is largely serious, or at least attempting to be. Cool, serious, lots of big FX..... to be honest I think a lot of people are personally embarrassed to watch everything from LOTR to Star Wars, they just manage to justify it to themselves in some way. But Quirky Sc-Fi/Fantasy? Most people wouldn't be bothered.

This isn't an indictment of anyone's personal opinion of his show, I'm not telling anyone they're stupid for like his stuff. This is really about Whedon's track record with a broader audience (not so good).
__________________
-FordSVT-
FordSVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 02:00 PM   #74
Professor Zoom
Vice Admiral
 
Professor Zoom's Avatar
 
Location: Idealistic
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Lindley wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.
Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?
Not really. It's Star Wars (A New Hope) without the Aliens.
I don't know. I guess I just wouldn't call the idea out there or strange...
__________________
Batman does not eat nachos.
Professor Zoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2008, 03:11 PM   #75
BlackestPanther
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
Quite honestly, and I've got so much shit for saying this in the past but I'll say it again anyway, Whedon has a very specific writing style that appeals to a very specific segment of the audience that simply doesn't understand that. They think he's Shakespeare and anyone who disagrees doesn't "get" him. When it comes to Whedon and his various projects, it's never WHEDON'S fault they fail, its some executive somewhere.
AMEN.

Joss is a moderate talent, at best. The middle seasons of Buffy were good, but the first season was complete crap, the first two seasons of Angel were unwatchable and Firefly was just boring. Even his comic book writing style has that overdone angsty bullcrap that we keep getting from him. I could not get past issue #2 of Buffy Season 8. Whedon has no style other than being Joss Whedon. He has become a charicature of himself and I have zero interest in Dollhouse. It may work as a TV movie, but I just can't see the premise keeping me engaged past a few episodes.
BlackestPanther is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
browncoats, dollhouse, joss whedon, new morons at fox, serenity

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.