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Old September 16 2008, 07:22 PM   #91
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

As always, to each their own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc. etc. etc.
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Old September 17 2008, 12:21 AM   #92
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

I just found it rushed, like it was way too easy to convince the Vorlons and Shadows to leave, but I'm very okay with the idea behind it.
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Old September 17 2008, 07:55 AM   #93
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

Lets not forget that Lorien was standing RIGHT there. Lorien being the closest thing to a living god in the eyes of the other first ones, that had to have factored into their acceptance. Also, being first ones I imagine they're a little quicker on the uptake than most so once it became clear they'd failed as guardians, what else could they do?
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Old September 17 2008, 07:59 AM   #94
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

I dunno. I think just would have liked a little more time spent with the First Ones, instead of them just taking off.
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Old September 17 2008, 08:19 AM   #95
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

The guy has spent the last million years sitting at the bottom of a pit. Time doesn't mean the same to him as it does to us.
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Old September 17 2008, 08:21 AM   #96
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

I just mean "on screen" time. Have the next half of an episode deal with the departure of the First Ones, instead of them just being suddenly gone.

It's not a big deal, really. It's the storytelling, not the story itself, that felt rushed.
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Old September 17 2008, 08:29 AM   #97
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

It's supposed to be sudden. Besides, I think it'd rather out of character for them to have a drawn out farewell. Silently sidling off, phasing out or zooming off is much more in keeping with what we've come to expect from them.

Of course all we saw was them all leaving Coriana VI space. it was at least several days before Z'ha'dum was fully evacuated and with Vorlon space sealed off there's no telling what went on when they left.
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Old September 18 2008, 06:12 AM   #98
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

I just rewatched the scene that ended the Shadow War again and I have to say that it does appear that I may enjoy the series even more the second time through, knowing what I'll know. But after watching this scene again something jumped out at me very plainly. This whole scenario reminds me of our political scene. Conservative Republicans vs. Liberal Democrats. It seemed so obvious that I'm surprised it didn't jump out at me this plainly the first time. The Vorlons, order, obedience (religious), "of the past," Shadows, "of the future," chaos, Darwin's natural selection (science). But the thing that stuck out to me most in this comparison is the idea that, to the Vorlons and Shadows, it was no longer about helping the younger races (the people), it had become completely about which team wins and has bragging rights. Then, in the scene, the people step up to these two "parties" and say "Enough! We don't need you anymore. Get the hell out of our galaxy!"

Anyone else see it that way?
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Old September 18 2008, 06:23 AM   #99
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

Well, I do now...
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Old September 18 2008, 07:41 AM   #100
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

The conflict between order and chaos and the need to move out of your parents' influence is as old as the hills. It's just as relevant today as it was in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. As such you can find parallels in socio-political situations throughout history.
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Old September 18 2008, 09:12 AM   #101
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

It's the same conflict on many levels. It's order vs chaos in the universe, authoritarian vs libertarian in society, the influence of the parents.

There's a similar conflict on a psychological level, between the conscience ("super-ego") and the subconscious ("shadow self" in the terminology of C.G. Jung - there's a reason the Shadows got their name).

Becoming more than a mere pawn in the presence of all those opposing factors thying to control you is what the Shadow war is about. Trying to fight all these controlling influences by force is futile- "you have to understand you way out of it."
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Old September 18 2008, 11:31 AM   #102
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

When I first watched it, there was a great deal of buzzing about an apparent political allegory with the Shadow/Vorlon conflict. I understood that reasoning, because the same idea popped into my mind, too. However, the portrayed conflict itself seemed more to be one between any two disparate ideologies than anything political.

One question, as to your "of the past" and "of the future" delineations, are you referring to Morden's explanation to Sheridan in "Z'ha'dum"?
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Last edited by Neroon; September 18 2008 at 01:00 PM. Reason: typos and clarification
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Old September 19 2008, 02:46 AM   #103
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

Neroon wrote: View Post
One question, as to your "of the past" and "of the future" delineations, are you referring to Morden's explanation to Sheridan in "Z'ha'dum"?
I believe I got it from Sheridan saying it while talking to the Vorlon in the block of ice (or whatever it is). I don't remember, exactly.
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Old September 19 2008, 03:21 AM   #104
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

I was also confused by the seemingly anti-climactic ending, but upon reflection, I think it makes more sense than having constant explosions. It fits well with the theme of the show and works better in the overall context of the story..
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Old September 19 2008, 10:11 AM   #105
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Re: End of Shadow War = Lame

Starfleet Engineer wrote: View Post
I just rewatched the scene that ended the Shadow War again and I have to say that it does appear that I may enjoy the series even more the second time through, knowing what I'll know. But after watching this scene again something jumped out at me very plainly. This whole scenario reminds me of our political scene. Conservative Republicans vs. Liberal Democrats. It seemed so obvious that I'm surprised it didn't jump out at me this plainly the first time. The Vorlons, order, obedience (religious), "of the past," Shadows, "of the future," chaos, Darwin's natural selection (science). But the thing that stuck out to me most in this comparison is the idea that, to the Vorlons and Shadows, it was no longer about helping the younger races (the people), it had become completely about which team wins and has bragging rights. Then, in the scene, the people step up to these two "parties" and say "Enough! We don't need you anymore. Get the hell out of our galaxy!"

Anyone else see it that way?
[londo]Actually... now that you mention it. [/londo]
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