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View Poll Results: Grade "Samson & Delilah"
"Excellent." (Excellent) 47 36.43%
"Come with me if you want to live." (Above Average) 54 41.86%
"Thank you for explaining." (Average) 22 17.05%
"Hasta La Vista Baby." (Below Average) 6 4.65%
"You are Terminated." (Failure) 0 0%
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 18 2008, 10:21 AM   #376
3D Master
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Re: Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
No, I'm not. I've already acknowledged that your way of looking at things is a possibility, you however refuse to do the same with what I'm saying.
That's mostly because I find fault in your theory that a predestination paradox can coincide with events that change it.
Well, you're wrong.

No, they don't, and no you haven't. In fact, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that supports that. It may be your opinion you gave any evidence, but when logic is applied you have not done so at all.
You keep saying this, I keep giving evidence, and you apparently don't read it, or just refuse to acknowledge it.

Here is what supports that T3 and T2 changed T1, in-universe, in a logical fashion. Read carefully this time:

Terminator 1 presents a predestination paradox. A terminator is sent back to kill the mother of its worst enemy, but inadvertently ends up creating Skynet and the very enemy it tried to stop. This is an unbreakable loop.

Terminator 2 shows the Connors severely hindering Cyberdyne systems, with the possibility of stopping Skynet, or at the very least delaying it.

Terminator 3 verifies that they only delayed it. But certain lieutenants are killed and things are changed.

The Kyle in this new future has got to be different, and cannot fulfill an exact loop. Even the Skynet is different. The future cannot point back to the past in the exact same way as it did before.
And all of that doesn't matter, because the Kyle that was sent back to 1984 comes from the original timeline, not this changed one. Heck, in this changed timeline, Skynet may not sent a Terminator back at all.

The two theories of mutable and immutable timelines cannot co-exist.

I don't know if I can explain it any more clearly than that.
Of course not, but I never said they did.

That's the exact definition of predestination! It's knowing how things turn out, and that nothing you do can change that.
Except for that annoying fact that he easily could have changed it by for example flipping that switch on beforehand. The whole point is that things are NOT pre-destined, they CAN change - and here we go again - but they do NOT HAVE to. And if you've been victorious, you do everything in your power to introduce as little, or no change if you can, because a change might lead to your defeat after all.

I'm not seeing that I ever agreed with your theories on the matter of predestination. And what you call facts are not really facts, just your opinions. It's not really about shouting them, in a literal sense, but just repeating them over and over without actually referencing what I've actually said.
Oh, go back and check, at one point you agreed that just because time can change, it doesn't mean it has to. And this is a fact. It's a simple logical truth. It is the same thing as:

Just because I can change the order of my books, doesn't mean I have to.

Just because you can turn left, doesn't mean you have to.

Just because tomorrow an asteroid might slam into New York and reduce it smoldering ashes, doesn't mean it has to.

Just because time can change, doesn't mean it has to.

It only flies in the face of being able to travel in time and to change it.
No, it doesn't. Again, just because you can change time when you go back in time, doesn't mean you have to when you travel back in time.

Only if time is unchangeable can this be true, because then EVERY time travel event, from before or after a loop, to before, after, or in a loop, or just any time travel event when there didn't seem to be a loop, is by definition a pre-destination paradox. In fact, EVERY ACTION taken by ANYONE is pre-destined.
Yes, that is the theory. The theory is an all-or-nothing where either you can change things, or you cannot. There is no in-between.
:sighs: Of course there is no in-between. You either can change things or you can't.

But again, just because you CAN change time when you do time travel, does not mean you must whenever it happens.

Thus, you can have a pre-destination paradox occur, which you can subsequently destroy should you wish to.

What happens after such a loop, or before it, therefor, is completely separate from that loop. And if time is changeable, then you can go back into that loop and change it. However, the loop itself is still a pre-destination paradox timeloop for the duration in which it exists.
This goes back to that time referencing an outside of time event. A time loop cannot exist for a certain amount of time. It's just completely contradictory. It either happened, or it did not. A predestination paradox is supposed to be infinite and unchanged. It can neither have a beginning, nor an ending.
That time loop seems to be infinite and unchangeable from within that loop, but not from outside of it. It's a reference frame point like I said. From within that loop it seems infinite and unchangeable, and from within that loop that's a perfectly valid truth, and thus this pre-destination paradox exists within that loop. But the moment you get outside that loop (and you do, otherwise time would literally be destroyed the moment of the time travel, the 10^-43 second that'd come after it, would be completely destroyed and space and time would unravel), your view is different. Hence you can have a pre-destination timeloop both existing and not existing, just like a photon and any other particle is both a wave and particle at the same time, and depending on how you look at it you see only one aspect.

Samurai8472 wrote: View Post
nx1701g wrote: View Post

The T-1000 cannot be reprogramed by the Resistance and they're very hard to capture to do so. The design consists not of one chip, but millions. Each nanite contains an individual processor chip (which is why Skynet is so afraid of it because it's thinking power rivals the Cheyenne Mountain processor).
How do you know Skynets afraid of the T-1000?


EDIT Actually I found a website with a really long answer

<snip quote>
That's all assuming the book has it right about what a T-1000 is of course. It is not canon. Me, I've never looked at a T-1000 as a bunch of nanites. Indeed, if it were a bunch of nanites, there are quite some contradictions. If it were nanites, then a piece separated from the whole wouldn't stop functioning, there a bunch of nanites after all, and they'd still be functioning nanites. So a piece getting blown off remaining in a police car wouldn't remain stuck in the police car, it would liquify and attack John Connor, especially when John went to grab it and throw it away.

I always looked upon the liquid metal matrix as a liquid crystal display. Send a current and the liquid crystals shift into the pattern you want them to do, and emit the right light to show a picture. The T-1000 would be the same, an alloy that reacts to a current, and changes under its influence. It thus, would still have a few CPUs, they can just freely float anywhere in the metal.

It also much better explains the TX liquid metal skin. If the liquid metal skin were nanites - self thinking ones, a T-1000 - it would never be able to control that skin, it would have a mind of its own.

Last edited by 3D Master; September 18 2008 at 10:35 AM.
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Old September 18 2008, 05:28 PM   #377
Ryan8bit
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Re: Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

3D Master wrote: View Post
Of course not, but I never said they did.
That's basically what you've been saying the whole time. That somehow you can have a predestination paradox, and that it can be changed at the same time.

The whole point is that things are NOT pre-destined, they CAN change - and here we go again - but they do NOT HAVE to. And if you've been victorious, you do everything in your power to introduce as little, or no change if you can, because a change might lead to your defeat after all.
Here you go just beating that point into the ground again.

Yes, just because things can change does not mean they have to. I agree on that because it is a simple point of logic. However, it does not apply to this situation AT ALL. In some context, things DID change, making that whole argument moot. Why do you fail to understand this? Why do you try to argue that point when that is not at all the point I am making? That's the straw man, don't you get it?

Thus, you can have a pre-destination paradox occur, which you can subsequently destroy should you wish to.
This abandons all logic. So I think this debate is over if you can't understand that the very essence of a causality loop defies change. You go on and on about reference frames, but they have nothing to do with it being changeable. It doesn't matter if you're before, in the middle of, or after the event, it's still perceived as a loop. Changes in the middle break that loop, plain and simple.
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Old September 18 2008, 08:59 PM   #378
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Of course not, but I never said they did.
That's basically what you've been saying the whole time. That somehow you can have a predestination paradox, and that it can be changed at the same time.
They are not the same thing. A predestination paradox does not equal an immutable timeline.

The whole point is that things are NOT pre-destined, they CAN change - and here we go again - but they do NOT HAVE to. And if you've been victorious, you do everything in your power to introduce as little, or no change if you can, because a change might lead to your defeat after all.
Here you go just beating that point into the ground again.

Yes, just because things can change does not mean they have to. I agree on that because it is a simple point of logic. However, it does not apply to this situation AT ALL. In some context, things DID change, making that whole argument moot. Why do you fail to understand this? Why do you try to argue that point when that is not at all the point I am making? That's the straw man, don't you get it?
Whether or not things changed, has no bearing on the John Connor who sent the T-800 back in time to protect his younger self. At that point, nothing had changed, he only just sent Kyle Reese back through time to protect his mother. Things only changed the moment he sent the T-800 back through time.

Thus, you can have a pre-destination paradox occur, which you can subsequently destroy should you wish to.
This abandons all logic. So I think this debate is over if you can't understand that the very essence of a causality loop defies change. You go on and on about reference frames, but they have nothing to do with it being changeable. It doesn't matter if you're before, in the middle of, or after the event, it's still perceived as a loop. Changes in the middle break that loop, plain and simple.
And you still do not understand that a pre-destination paradox, does not equal an immutable timeline and being completely unchangeable. That's your failure, you've taken what a pre-destination paradox and tacked things on there that do not belong there.

A pre-destination paradox is nothing but the following: going back through the past to change history creates the very history you're trying to change.

THAT is a pre-destination paradox, no more, no less. One does not require unchangeable time for this to work.
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Old September 19 2008, 12:12 AM   #379
stj
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Location: the real world
Re: Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

The first episode of the TV series had time travel just so the series could be in the now, instead of when the movies came out. They're not worried about the show making sense. The characters don't need to have beliefs and motivations because it's modern TV where the characters don't have minds---they just do what the writers think is cool. Therefore, the characters will not worry about time paradoxes or causal loops, argue about them, not even act upon definite beliefs about them. Which means the big debate is moot. There's no point to getting worked up about something the show's creators don't even care about.
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Old September 19 2008, 04:34 AM   #380
nx1701g
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Re: Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

That's all assuming the book has it right about what a T-1000 is of course. It is not canon.
Considering the book description of the T-1000 was from the character description that was sent out to the casting agencies to help the actors create their impression of the character yeah I really think that it's inaccurate.

Me, I've never looked at a T-1000 as a bunch of nanites. Indeed, if it were a bunch of nanites, there are quite some contradictions. If it were nanites, then a piece separated from the whole wouldn't stop functioning, there a bunch of nanites after all, and they'd still be functioning nanites. So a piece getting blown off remaining in a police car wouldn't remain stuck in the police car, it would liquify and attack John Connor, especially when John went to grab it and throw it away.
This was explained in the deleted scenes and commentary. The T-1000, when damaged or separated, will attempt to hide to conduct repairs. That was why the system kept glitching in the steel mill (the hand taking on the caution tape appearance, the legs taking on the steel floor pattern).

It also much better explains the TX liquid metal skin. If the liquid metal skin were nanites - self thinking ones, a T-1000 - it would never be able to control that skin, it would have a mind of its own.
Yeah, and the T-X was in control of each of those nanites. They were programmed to obey the directives of the T-X by Skynet.
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