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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old September 4 2008, 12:09 PM   #46
EJD1984
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Christopher - At least let me win ONE argument/hypothesis in my lifetime..........LOL

Why So Serious?!

Last edited by EJD1984; September 5 2008 at 12:51 AM.
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Old September 4 2008, 01:07 PM   #47
Saul
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Re: Data - B4 Question

KRAD wrote: View Post
saul wrote: View Post
However, more Trek characters have come back to life in novels than onscreen.
Really? Onscreen we've had McCoy ("Shore Leave"), Scotty ("The Changeling"), Spock (The Search for Spock), O'Brien ("Visionary"), and Kim ("Deadlock"). In fiction we've had Kirk (The Return) and Tucker (The Good that Men Do). I suppose you could make an argument for Sisko (Unity). That still puts the screen stuff in the lead.
However, besides Spock and Kirk those other characters you mentioned weren't really "killed off" were they? They were back to life in the same episode. We knew they'd be back before the end of the episode.
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Old September 4 2008, 01:38 PM   #48
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Re: Data - B4 Question

...Which is usually the case in novels, too. Is there an L.A.Graf novel where Chekov isn't presumed dead until finally miracuously reunited with his friends?

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Old September 4 2008, 01:47 PM   #49
Christopher
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Being presumed dead isn't the same thing as actually being declared dead and subsequently being brought back to life. McCoy in "Shore Leave" and Scotty in "The Changeling" were both clinically dead for at least several minutes before being revived by advanced medicine. Chekov in the L.A. Graf novels went through an astonishing amount of abuse and injury, but I don't think he was ever clinically dead in them.

However, I do question counting "Visionary" O'Brien and "Deadlock" Kim in the list, since by that standard, you'd need to include the entire crew of the Enterprise-D several times over thanks to "Cause and Effect."

Wait, on second thought... since "Deadlock" was a physical rather than temporal duplication of the ship, Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman actually did die permanently and not come back -- at least, one of each of them did. The other deaths were reversed in one way or another, but these deaths were permanent; there just happened to be exact duplicates of them available to replace them. Convenient, that.
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Old September 4 2008, 01:50 PM   #50
Therin of Andor
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Re: Data - B4 Question

EJD1984 wrote: View Post
In a few interviews I've read over the years, Bennet, Myer, and Nimoy have said that the final tube and voice over were added due to the fact that after filming had ended Nimoy said at the wrap party "I had a lot of fun doing this movie, I can't wait to do the next one" So they quickly filmed the tube scene as their "out" to bring Spock back.
I'm not so sure that was the exact order of events. The soft-landed torpedo, and the McCoy/Spock "Remember" close-up, were simply to let the audience know that it was possible that Spock could return in some form, not that Nimoy would definitely be playing him.

Indeed, the premise of the treatment, "ST III: Return to Genesis", written by Harve Bennett after ST II was playing in cinemas, had a vampiric-looking Spock returning as a ghostly vision in mirrors on the Enterprise, not as a regenerated child.
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Old September 4 2008, 02:44 PM   #51
Iamnotspock
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
EJD1984 wrote: View Post
In a few interviews I've read over the years, Bennet, Myer, and Nimoy have said that the final tube and voice over were added due to the fact that after filming had ended Nimoy said at the wrap party "I had a lot of fun doing this movie, I can't wait to do the next one" So they quickly filmed the tube scene as their "out" to bring Spock back.
I'm not so sure that was the exact order of events. The soft-landed torpedo, and the McCoy/Spock "Remember" close-up, were simply to let the audience know that it was possible that Spock could return in some form, not that Nimoy would definitely be playing him.
Indeed. Harve Bennett went to Leonard Nimoy on set and asked, "What can you do to leave a thread for the future?" Nimoy came up with the idea for the "remember" mind meld, and Bennett said, "That's perfect." Then the shot of the torpedo having soft-landed was added in post production as a result of the test audience finding the ending too depressing.

Both of these things were done without the involvement of Nicholas Meyer, who made his feelings very clear; Spock was dead. He didn't return to direct III when asked because he felt that he'd invested a lot in Spock's death, and that it had been too final to come back and resurrect him. Meyer had added McCoy's line, "He's really not dead, as long as we remember him" on the day of shooting that scene as he'd heard the line used elsewhere and thought that it would be an acceptable way to perpetuate Spock's memory without undoing his death.

I think that one can look at B4 singing "Blue Skies" in much the same way. It offers a glimmer of hope for the future, that Data's memory will live on in B4 yet B4 won't fully become Data, as that would cheapen his sacrifice, as Christopher said.
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Old September 4 2008, 04:32 PM   #52
Deano2099
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Re: Data - B4 Question

I don't think Data should be bought back, but don't see it as unfeasible either. Just because B4 is an earlier model with far less 'processing power' doesn't mean it can't incorporate the instructions from Data's network. In modern day computing all computing instructions can be reduced down to basic commands that will run on any system (down to the simplest of theoretical computation devices, the Turing Machine). This means that theoretically you can run The Sims on a C64, just that the C64 would not be able to process it anywhere near fast enough to make viable, but given a few million times longer it could process the instructions.

Therefore it'd just be a matter of improving B4's processing with upgrades that could be developed in the future until it was at a point where it could incorporate those instructions in real time.

It's still a bad idea though.
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Old September 4 2008, 05:03 PM   #53
Mike Farley
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Something to consider: even if somehow B4 managed to run the "Data program" and become Data...wouldn't that, in essence, KILL B4, an individual sentient being?

Would even Geordi, Data's best friend, be willing to murder Data's brother to get Data back?
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Old September 4 2008, 07:20 PM   #54
EJD1984
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Re: Data - B4 Question

There are a couple of other options that poped into my lil' old head.

1. After Data turned off Lore. Was it ever mentioned whatever happed to Lore's parts? I doubt Data left him behind (fear of possibility reassembly). Lore was most likely put in a storage container somewhere. The Daystrom Inst. could eventually come into possession of Lore, and try a drastic experiment - Wipe Lore's processor clean, and try to download Data from B4. It'd be an interesting concept to explore - Data exploring remorse that Lore was totally sacrificed to being Data back, along with ghost flashes of Lore within Data's matrix. (Just a thought)

2. Or the quick, cheap and easy way to bring Data back - Q
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Old September 4 2008, 07:21 PM   #55
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Re: Data - B4 Question

The novel Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang established that Lore's bits were destroyed when the Enterprise-D crashed in Generations.
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Old September 4 2008, 07:31 PM   #56
Marco Palmieri
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Re: Data - B4 Question

KRAD wrote: View Post
The novel Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang established that Lore's bits were destroyed when the Enterprise-D crashed in Generations.
Well, Lore's positronic brain, specifically, which was being kept in a vault, separate from his body, as a precaution against him somehow coming back online.




Of course, it's always possible that They Saved Lore's Brain!
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Old September 4 2008, 08:03 PM   #57
Trent Roman
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Christopher wrote: View Post
Wait, on second thought... since "Deadlock" was a physical rather than temporal duplication of the ship, Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman actually did die permanently and not come back -- at least, one of each of them did. The other deaths were reversed in one way or another, but these deaths were permanent; there just happened to be exact duplicates of them available to replace them. Convenient, that.
Since the ship was duplicated at the beginning of the episode, both crews were 'our' crew (unlike, say, an alt. universe episode), so a full crew complement died during the course of that episode across the two ships.

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Old September 4 2008, 09:18 PM   #58
Christopher
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Re: Data - B4 Question

^^Yes, good point. Everybody died. Yet everybody lived. (Except all those poor Vidiians...)
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Old September 4 2008, 10:11 PM   #59
Therin of Andor
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Re: Data - B4 Question

saul wrote: View Post
However, besides Spock and Kirk those other characters you mentioned weren't really "killed off" were they? They were back to life in the same episode. We knew they'd be back before the end of the episode.
I dunno. After the death of Yar, was any regular really "safe"? In fact, wasn't Harry Kim's Species 8472 infection deliberately done to put the actor, Garrett Wang, back in line. If he didn't improve his antics after the return from hiatus, Kim could be "offed" by the virus.

They had also discussed killing off the original Will Riker and replacing him with transporter twin "Tom" at the end of "Second Chances".
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Old September 4 2008, 10:58 PM   #60
Christopher
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Re: Data - B4 Question

And the "Best of Both Worlds" cliffhanger was done in part (IIRC) because they weren't sure Patrick Stewart would be coming back. It was possible that Picard would've been killed off and Riker would've become the lead.

And of course, Jadzia died, and although an aspect of the character came back, the actress did not.
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