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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 28 2008, 06:08 PM   #16
RaymondJames
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Thanks for the feed back. Thats pretty much how I felt, Shew as more science like in season 1 but soon drifted away from that and by the time the war came she just had ateal unifourm for no reason. Personally I would of written her as changing into Operations, tactical or command divison.

However unlike some, I felt thatthe actress was good, the part may not of been important but she was likable, for me atleast. Her deathw as the worst written death of a main character I have ever seen, you couldn't even cry or get chocked up at it. On stargate sg-1 when they wacked their reccurring character Doctor Fraiser you could get a little sad or pissed if you loved her (Bastard!). And the speach/eulogy was very sad.
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Old August 28 2008, 06:36 PM   #17
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

RaymondJames wrote: View Post
Thanks for the feed back. Thats pretty much how I felt, Shew as more science like in season 1 but soon drifted away from that and by the time the war came she just had ateal unifourm for no reason. Personally I would of written her as changing into Operations, tactical or command divison.
Well she was still the chief science officer on the Defiant/DS9 during the war. Even stuff like "One Little Ship". Besides we also had Worf changing to command and it's nice to have the uniform colour difference.
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Old August 28 2008, 06:48 PM   #18
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Jack Bauer wrote: View Post
DS9 at the least amount of technobabble of ny Trek show other than TOS so there was les opportunity for her to spout scientific sounding dialog.
That's not true, but it is the Trek show with the least amount of technobabble after TOS and Enterprise.
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Old August 28 2008, 07:07 PM   #19
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Navaros wrote: View Post
Jadzia Dax was a 100% useless character to the DS9 show. Both in terms of the writing for her, and the horrible acting by Farrell. Jadzia is easily and by far the very worst character on DS9.

As for the point that she was 'sometimes' used as a science officer: 100% of those lines are completely inter-changeable with O'Brien. Could have never had Jadzia on the show, gave O'Brien all those lines, and nothing would change. Just goes to emphasize very clearly how generic, poorly-written and useless of a character Jadzia was.
Characters are more than their jobs, especially on a show like DS9. I liked that since there wasn't much science to be done, they found other things to do with the character. They tapped into her history with Sisko for great effect in episodes like "In the Pale Moonlight" when she's serving as a Devil's Advocate. They remembered that her very old age had made her wise to what was good in life, so she had an appreciation for it, she seized every day, she had fun, she was bold, and she was smart. In that way here character was a meditation on life and death because both were so much a part of her history. They remembered that she had a history with some of the Klingon Empire's greatest warriors, so that, combined with here zest for life attracted her to Worf. She saw in him someone she could show how wonderful life could be and how to tap into his own heritage and move away from simply practicing Klingon rituals towards truly understanding the beauty and passion that made those rituals vibrant. She gave everyone a chance but stood up to those that wronged her or her friends.

In all of those ways, she wasn't quite like O'Brien. But yeah, if all you see in a character is who should say which system is down 47% then O'Brien or Nog would have sufficed.

I like Dax more than when the show was first-run, in part because she was underrated, attacked, and not taken seriously, but also because of what I've said above in this thread.
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Old August 28 2008, 07:16 PM   #20
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Damask wrote: View Post
RaymondJames wrote: View Post
Thanks for the feed back. Thats pretty much how I felt, Shew as more science like in season 1 but soon drifted away from that and by the time the war came she just had ateal unifourm for no reason. Personally I would of written her as changing into Operations, tactical or command divison.
Well she was still the chief science officer on the Defiant/DS9 during the war. Even stuff like "One Little Ship". Besides we also had Worf changing to command and it's nice to have the uniform colour difference.
Worf, he likes to change. Red-Gold-Red
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Old August 28 2008, 07:23 PM   #21
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Eric Cheung wrote: View Post
In all of those ways, she wasn't quite like O'Brien. But yeah, if all you see in a character is who should say which system is down 47% then O'Brien or Nog would have sufficed.
Exactly. You couldn't have O'Brien, Rom, Nog act like a Romulan as Dax did "In the Pale Moonlight". You could have had Jake be comforted by anyone on the station after his father dies in "The Visitor" but it doesn't have the same impact as Dax. Or anybody striking up a friendship with Quark, Ferengi warts and all. Our "out-Klingoning" Worf. Eh, I like the character.
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Old September 7 2008, 08:01 PM   #22
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

RaymondJames wrote: View Post
Thanks for the feed back. That's pretty much how I felt, Shew as more science like in season 1 but soon drifted away from that and by the time the war came she just had a teal uniform for no reason. Personally I would of written her as changing into Operations, tactical or command division.
Maybe it's just because Terry Farrell wouldn't have looked as good in red or gold because she has a very light complexion.
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Old September 7 2008, 11:08 PM   #23
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

AlxxlA wrote: View Post
Maybe it's just because Terry Farrell wouldn't have looked as good in red or gold because she has a very light complexion.
Besides, wasn't it just Dax and Bashir who were in green/blue, while most of the Starfleet regular and recurring characters wore maroon or gold [and the Bajoran uniforms were primarily - if not exclusively - pink, red (for Kira) and beige]
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Old September 8 2008, 07:32 AM   #24
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Anthony Sabre wrote: View Post
Since you're implying there is no difference between science and engineering, you could take O'Brien's lines and give them to Jadzia. Better yet no O'Brien at all would mean no Keiko and Molly, who were far more useless than anyone, let alone Jadzia. You could take Worf's lines and give them to O'Brien since Miles has more experience as a tactical officer then Worf. Contributions are best measured by what the character actually did, not just said. She was effectively used as a science officer until the war took over as the primary arc. Even then she commanded the Defiant in Sisko's absence, along with being his closest friend and confidant.
Engineering is an aspect of science, so that's right, there isn't a difference since engineering is science. O'Brien in his Engineer job played a vital role on the show, as indeed every other main character did, other than the Daxes.

I agree that Keiko and Molly were useless characters, although at least they weren't main characters, so it's less of a big deal. That doesn't make Jadzia not likewise be a useless character, though. Simplest empirical benchmark test for this: did anything meaningful change about the show after Jadzia died? Nope. No effect on the show whatsoever. If she was a useful character, this would not be the case.

I agree that the characters are important not just for what they said, but what they did. Although having generic, inter-changeable 'talking head' dialogue, which 100% of Jadzia's dialogue was, is always a sign of bad writing/bad character and universally makes for bad entertainment regardless of if her actions had some merit of her being a character that exists on the show.

However, Jadzia fails on the "what she did" front too. She never did anything interesting or important. She did nothing that couldn't have been done by any of a whole slew of other characters. If O'Brien had 100% of her lines, they would have had to make very, very few changes to the scripts and how the scenes that they shot were shot, or what they shot. Anything that couldn't be given to O'Brien (ie: 'friend who listens to Sisko') could certainly have been given to Kira. There is no other main character on DS9 who could have been so easily removed (other than Ezri); because all the others are way more useful & intergral to the plot of the show.

I agree that Worf was useless as a 'tactical officer' on the show and that job too was already more than adequately covered by other characters. But his presence on the show allowed them to segway into some excellent Klingon content which they couldn't have done without him. Which therefore made him a useful character to the show.

Last edited by Navaros; September 8 2008 at 07:50 AM.
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Old September 8 2008, 04:13 PM   #25
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

In the early seasons she definitely was the source for all non-medical science. She kind of lost that when her lab was blown up in, I think, The Alternate. Not that she ever seemed to use her lab much. She then seemed to become a character that the producers wanted to use for character development. We learnt a lot about her past lives over the course of the series, in episodes such as Equilibrium and Facets. And it's pretty obvious that as soon as Worf turned up she became his counterpart so that his Klingon side could be explored. Once they were married it really did seem as though they reached the end of the road for the character.

As far as it goes with Terry, I never disliked her as an actress. I thought she did a great job with the material she was given. The less said about her hairstyle in The Search the better...!

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Old September 8 2008, 04:28 PM   #26
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

AlxxlA wrote: View Post
Maybe it's just because Terry Farrell wouldn't have looked as good in red or gold because she has a very light complexion.
Nah, Terry Farrell looks good in every uniform colour.

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Old September 8 2008, 08:00 PM   #27
Eric Cheung
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Navaros wrote: View Post
I agree that the characters are important not just for what they said, but what they did. Although having generic, inter-changeable 'talking head' dialogue, which 100% of Jadzia's dialogue was, is always a sign of bad writing/bad character and universally makes for bad entertainment regardless of if her actions had some merit of her being a character that exists on the show.

However, Jadzia fails on the "what she did" front too. She never did anything interesting or important. She did nothing that couldn't have been done by any of a whole slew of other characters. If O'Brien had 100% of her lines, they would have had to make very, very few changes to the scripts and how the scenes that they shot were shot, or what they shot. Anything that couldn't be given to O'Brien (ie: 'friend who listens to Sisko') could certainly have been given to Kira. There is no other main character on DS9 who could have been so easily removed (other than Ezri); because all the others are way more useful & intergral to the plot of the show.
When you throw around numbers like 100% you put yourself at a disadvantage in this debate; you charge those who seek to disprove you with the easy task of finding even just one example (you could look here for some examples. It's not just that these lines come from a science officer or from a Trill, but that they come from Dax). O'Brien wouldn't have been the "friend who listens to Sisko" because they needed a character with a long history with him, that's one of the main reasons Dax was on board. And even if they could just switch these lines to someone else, why would they? They had a character that served a role.

It must be a very personal distaste for the character for you, and that's fine. But to suggest that she's useless and does nothing to further the show is simply incorrect.

It was correctly stated above that she was really the only person that could serve as a sounding board during "In the Pale Moonlight." The only three among the crew that could do it would maybe be Worf, Kira, or O'Brien. All three of them have demons of prejudice that they would have had to deal with. Dax was much more objective and insightful into Romulan philosophy and historical context, not to mention Sisko's closest friend. It couldn't be Garak or Quark because he hadn't considered going outside of Starfleet at that point yet.

To determine whether or not a character is useful is to ask if they have a point of view, something that motivates them, and if that motivation complements the show through that character's interactions.

Dax, much more than any character, served as a voice of calm reason having lived far longer than any other character, and long since having grown used to her own skin. She has not become bored with life lamenting her long life like Quinn the Q. Instead she embraced life and seized every day, learning to live with moderation without getting bored, and empowered by her lifetimes of accumulated knowledge and natural intelligence.

But the OP was referring to her role as science officer. The above suggests that she was very strong character, job title notwithstanding. You argue that any of her lines could be uttered by O'Brien or Nog. Maybe while on the bridge (though even on the bridge they managed to get some character based dialogue in, believably demonstrating a crew waiting for the storm to come), but then who really cares? They are after all trained Starfleet officers. In a real pinch all of their lines could be interchangeable to some extent. One doesn't watch a show just for the bridge or ops scenes or there wouldn't be any reason to do 178 episodes. That Dax served a purpose long after science became a secondary priority only boosts her as a character, both professionally and in terms of her relationships with the rest of the characters.

Some examples of quotes from IMDB that reveal to me the character of Jadzia Dax (most of which couldn't be spoken by Miles Edward O'Brien with all respect due to him):

Major Kira: [after revealing that she and Shakaar have split up] The way I see it, people are either meant to be together, or they're not.
Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax: I guess I'd rather believe that any relationship can work as long as both people really want it to.

[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: If I were in your shoes, I would be looking for someone a little more entertaining, a little more fun and maybe even a little more attainable.
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Worf[/COLOR]: You are not in my shoes.
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Too bad. You'd be amazed what I can do with a pair of size 18 boots.

[COLOR=#003399]Sisko[/COLOR]: All right, say it.
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: What?
[COLOR=#003399]Sisko[/COLOR]: That I have lost all my perspective, that I'm turning this into a vendetta between me and Eddington and that I am putting the ship, the crew and my entire career at risk, and if I had any brains at all I'd go back to my office, sit down and read Odo's crime reports.
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: I wasn't going to say that.
[COLOR=#003399]Sisko[/COLOR]: But that's what you were thinking, right?
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: No. Actually, what I was thinking is - you're becoming more like Curzon all the time.
[COLOR=#003399]Sisko[/COLOR]: I don't know how to take that.
[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Consider it a compliment. And the next time I go off, half-cocked on some wild-eyed adventure, think back to this moment, and be a little more understanding.

[COLOR=#003399]Lt. Commander Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Maybe it was arrogant to think you could find a cure, but it's even more arrogant to say there is no cure just because you couldn't find one.

[Dax is trying to work, but Virak'kara, a Jem'Hadar, is staring at her]
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Am I really that interesting? You've been standing there staring at me for the last two hours.
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: You are part of my combat team. I must learn to understand your behaviour - anticipate your actions.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: There must be something you'd rather do. Maybe get some sleep?
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: We don't sleep.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: How about getting something to eat?
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: The white is the only thing we need.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: [pondering] Don't sleep... don't eat... What do you do for relaxation?
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: Relaxation would only make us weak.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: [aghast] You people are no fun at all - I'm glad I'm not a Jem'Hadar woman.
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: There are no Jem'Hadar women.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: So what do you do? Lay eggs?
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: [proudly] Jem'Hadar are bred in birthing chambers. We are able to fight within three days of our emergence.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Lucky you. So let me get this straight: no sleep - no food - no women. No wonder you're so angry. After thirty or forty years of that I'd be angry too.
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: No Jem'Hadar has ever lived thirty years.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: [puzzeled] How old are you?
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: I am eight.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: I would have guessed at least fifteen.
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: Few Jem'Hadar live that long. If we reach twenty, we're considered honored elders.
[leans in]
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: How old are you?
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: I stopped counting at three hundred.
[COLOR=#003399]Virak'kara[/COLOR]: [amazed] You don't look it.
[COLOR=#003399]Jadzia Dax[/COLOR]: Thank you.
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Old September 8 2008, 11:51 PM   #28
Navaros
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

My mistake for not being more clear. What I meant in my previous comments was that any of her lines that are of any use, can have been given to either O'Brien or Kira or Nog or a whole slew of other characters.

The vast majority of those lines you listed are completely generic and inter-changeable with one or more of them.

All the lines you have listed by Jadzia that have plot-value or entertainment-value are inter-changeable with either O'Brien, Kira, Nog, or another character.

Those few lines that are not inter-changeable, are completely useless. They do not add any value to the show; neither plot-wise nor entertainment-wise.

There are a few lines delivering totally unfunny 'Trill jokes' that 'only Jadzia could tell', but the show wouldn't be missing anything without them -- rather, it would be improved. Likewise for Jadzia dictating some boring statements about "Curzon did this, Curzon did that..." in the most mundane, uninteresting way possible.

It's not correct that's she the only person who could serve as a sounding board in ITPM. Tons of characters could have done that. Garak, Kira, O'Brien. It's not like Jadzia did or said anything compelling in that scene that any of those other characters couldn't have done just as well, or better. If they were 'role-playing with prejudice' then the Sisko could have told them to cut it out, and got them to do it properly. Or found someone else if they continued to not comply with that. I don't think they would have displayed prejudice at all though since those characters already had episodes of them dealing with and overcoming their prejudices. It wouldn't matter if Sisko went to Garak about the roleplay, it's not like he was planning to do anything devious at that point when the roleplay occurred. Simply a clean discussion.

The concept of Dax having lived longer than anyone was never utilized well on the show. A great concept on paper, but they did absolutely nothing with it. There's actually a quote from Farrell that is relevant to this:

In fact, the crowd roared after she told one fan of the early DS9 days when, at 28, she faced playing such a weighty equal to the enormous presence of Avery Brooks' Commander Sisko. "'Just go watch "Star Wars" — you're just like Yoda'," she recalled being told, and then made a face: "Well, THAT was no help. "
It's correct - that was no help. Jadzia did not come across like Yoda or like someone who is wise. Her supposed extremely long-life was not at all congruent with her acting, or the writing behind her character.
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Old September 9 2008, 12:24 AM   #29
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

Part of the fun of watching a TV show or reading a book is in the character moments, especially since character-based dialogue is one of the hallmarks of DS9. Maybe her initial direction was that she was supposed to be Yoda-like, but characters evolve from where they are on the page in large part because of the writers and the actor collaborating (the degree of collaboration differs of course).

The "Trill jokes" aren't just jokes about being this particular kind of alien, but from her point of view of what it's like to be that particular type of alien. She was a character at peace with herself. The lines spoken by her could not have been spoken by Ezri becuase she was someone who was thrown into being the next Dax host out of unusual circumstance.

The reasons I gave for Dax being the sounding board in ITPM were character-based reasons. Could the other characters you mentioned have done it? Yeah, but why have them do it when to the writer it was a more interesting choice to have someone like Dax do it. She knows Sisko well enough that doing the seen as a role-playing exercise seemed more natural. If it was one of the other characters it would have been akin to the expository Observation Lounge scenes in TNG, it might have been okay, but it would have been expository filler to connect plot points. Storytelling isn't about getting to a destination but the fun you have in the car on the way.
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Old September 9 2008, 12:49 AM   #30
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Re: Jadzia Dax, not used in Ds9 how she was supposed to be?

I vaguely remember an interview with one of the producers who said that dax was originally conceived as the wise, old mentor type like Yoda (or Spock in TWOK) but after killing off Jadzia and bringing in Ezri they realized that the character of Dax was more interesting to portray as the confused host trying to adjust and incorporate the personalities of all the previous hosts and they wished that they had went that route in hindsight from the beginning.
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