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Old August 22 2008, 07:32 AM   #1
Technobuilder
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Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

I just finished watching Enterprise - 2x14 - Stigma and was thinking about the "minority" of touch-telepaths that existed at the time in the 22nd on Vulcan. Despite the Vulcan High Command's Dictatorial Rule (Arguably a Romulan Plot to overthrow the Goverment and bring about Reunification their way...), being a Mind-Melder wasn't something that could be determined from Birth (As all Vulcan's were logged in the genetic database, and Soval (A high-ranking member) was capable of Melding himself and had escaped detection till just before the shift caused by the Kir'Shara.

I've always assummed that all Vulcan's had the ability to Meld though to differing degrees. Some might not have even been aware of their potential and it just lay dormant. The stigma associated with being a melder obviously made being open to or indulging oneself in the practice less than desirable. But afterwards with Sarek himself known as a melder, touch telepathy became a more wide-spread ability in possession and practice.

Of course, just like with Vulcans, Betazoids exist with varying degrees of Telepathic Talents.

We've seen evidence of a Human/Vulcan Pairing in Spock and a Human/Betazoid pairing in Deana Troi.

Half-Betazoid Humans tend to be Empathic with some low Telepathic Talents yet only with those that they are strongly connected to emotionally.

So cross two Telepathic Species and what happens... what would the result of a Vulcan/Betazoid paring bring to the table in terms of Telepathic Talents.

Some like Lwaxana Troi are very powerful (Did she use telekinesis at one point?)

Then you've got others like Rennan Konya who is Betazoid but lacks any real telepathic ability instead reading the motor cortex of others.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the possibilities. I guess I'm looking at best guesses unless this has already been done in the books somewhere.
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Old August 22 2008, 03:47 PM   #2
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Technobuilder wrote: View Post
I've always assummed that all Vulcan's had the ability to Meld though to differing degrees. Some might not have even been aware of their potential and it just lay dormant. The stigma associated with being a melder obviously made being open to or indulging oneself in the practice less than desirable.
My assumption is that the "melders" are just people who had an inborn knack for it, whereas others needed training to develop the ability. Since the society discouraged such training, the majority of Vulcans wrongly assumed they couldn't meld at all.

But afterwards with Sarek himself known as a melder, touch telepathy became a more wide-spread ability in possession and practice.
Sarek? Do you mean Soval? I'd assume the change came about following the rediscovery of the Kir'Shara, when the Syrannites pretty much ended up in charge of the reformist government (or so it appeared). The Kir'Shara itself, Surak's true writings, may have contained material about melding that dispelled the myth of its rarity and stigma.

Some like Lwaxana Troi are very powerful (Did she use telekinesis at one point?)
No, she never did that.

Then you've got others like Rennan Konya who is Betazoid but lacks any real telepathic ability instead reading the motor cortex of others.
That is a real telepathic ability. He uses the same senses that other Betazoids use, but he's "nearsighted," as it were. In any population, there's going to be a range of different abilities. Lwaxana is toward the high end of the bell curve of Betazoid telepathic strength and skill, while Rennan is toward the low end. He's compensated for this deficiency by training himself to focus on a type of brain activity that's easier to read than cognitive thought.
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Old August 22 2008, 08:43 PM   #3
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

^A few notes...

1.) I meant Surak not Sarek... It was late, so apologies.

2.) I didn't think she did, but I read something about secret mental teachings leading to telekinesis on either Memory-Alpha in the "Apocrypha" or Memory Beta, so I thought I'd ask, as I didn't remember any of that myself.

3.) In regards to Konya, when I said lacking any real telepathic ability, I meant just what you said. He lacks the range of other telepathic abilities save for his ability to sense the motor cortex...

-I also wonder, if Lwaxana is "High" on the Bell Curve of Telepathic Abilities, then does that mean she is capable of reading emotions as clearly as Deana (It was never clear if to me if Betazoid Telepaths had Empathic Senses as well) or the Motor Cortex
as Konya does?

-No one willing to postulate on a Vulcan/Betazoid Hybrid?
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Old August 22 2008, 08:51 PM   #4
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Technobuilder wrote: View Post

-No one willing to postulate on a Vulcan/Betazoid Hybrid?
Pointed ears and black irises?

Telepathically speaking? Probably stronger powers-- the intimacy of a mind-meld without the physical contact.
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Old August 22 2008, 09:10 PM   #5
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Technobuilder wrote: View Post
-I also wonder, if Lwaxana is "High" on the Bell Curve of Telepathic Abilities, then does that mean she is capable of reading emotions as clearly as Deana (It was never clear if to me if Betazoid Telepaths had Empathic Senses as well) or the Motor Cortex
as Konya does?
It's all a question of which aspects of the brain's activity you focus your senses on. Empathy and motor-cortex reading are both easier than telepathy because they're reading more basic, universal aspects of neural activity, things that you don't need a high "resolution" in order to discern. With the higher resolution of telepathy, the ability to discern actual thoughts, reading the emotions associated with them would be easy.

However, I doubt a telepath of Lwaxana's strength would've developed Konya's motor-sensing skills, due to lack of need. She can sense the intent directly, so she wouldn't need to train herself in the workaround of sensing the muscle impulse. By analogy, people without working hands can train their toes to incredible dexterity to compensate, but those of us who can and do rely on our hands generally have very weak toes because we don't need to use them.
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Old August 23 2008, 03:07 AM   #6
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Good points.

Are Romulans capable of Touch-Telepathy?

I know they were interbreeding with Remans who had some mental powers... (or did the Remans derive their abilities from mixing with Romulans?) either way has this ever been addressed on-screen or in the literature?

While we're on the subject, how are Romulans different from Vulcans? Do they have the abilities of Vulcans for example and do they have something similar to Pon Far?

Sorry, to go somewhat off topic, but this line of thought has lead me to several questions I never really knew the answers to.
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Old August 23 2008, 10:44 AM   #7
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Technobuilder wrote: View Post
Good points.

Are Romulans capable of Touch-Telepathy?

I know they were interbreeding with Remans who had some mental powers... (or did the Remans derive their abilities from mixing with Romulans?) either way has this ever been addressed on-screen or in the literature?

While we're on the subject, how are Romulans different from Vulcans? Do they have the abilities of Vulcans for example and do they have something similar to Pon Far?

Sorry, to go somewhat off topic, but this line of thought has lead me to several questions I never really knew the answers to.
According to the books, the Romulans lost their ancestral telepathic abilties, though I suspect with training it could come back. There's no evidence of Romulans undergoing Pon Farr, so it might have been lost during the transit from Vulcan to ch'Rihan (Romulus).
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Old August 23 2008, 04:51 PM   #8
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

I thought I remembered hearing somewhere that Pon Farr was somehow related to the Vulcans emotional control. So if that is true then the Romulans would probably not deal with it since they let their emotions out.
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Old August 23 2008, 05:04 PM   #9
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

That claim has been made about pon farr -- that it's "the price they pay for being so controlled the rest of the time" -- but that doesn't make a lot of sense in biological terms. It's more likely that the conditions and biochemistry on Romulus altered the colonists' hormones. Indeed, such potential might already exist in Vulcan genetics. Infrequent procreation is a credible adaptation to the austere conditions of a desert climate, but it's possible that the Vulcans' ancestors only adapted it as their planet grew more arid. Once in a more lush environment, the ancestral reproductive cycle might have reasserted itself. Although that would suggest that Vulcans should've lost pon farr simply from developing civilization, food surplus, and climate control, or at least that Vulcans raised on other worlds like Earth would develop without it.
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Old August 23 2008, 08:29 PM   #10
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although that would suggest that Vulcans should've lost pon farr simply from developing civilization, food surplus, and climate control, or at least that Vulcans raised on other worlds like Earth would develop without it.
I think that's a pretty good indication that the pon farr is pretty deeply encoded in Vulcan genetics, if it's not a result of of their cultural practices. And I don't see why it couldn't be - humans can affect their brain chemistry and thus behaviour simply by the diet they choose (or adopt out of neglect or ignorance). I don't see why the Vulcan's lifestyle choices couldn't have a similar, more infrequent knock-on effect on their biology.

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Old August 24 2008, 01:12 AM   #11
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Xeris wrote: View Post
Technobuilder wrote: View Post
Good points.

Are Romulans capable of Touch-Telepathy?

I know they were interbreeding with Remans who had some mental powers... (or did the Remans derive their abilities from mixing with Romulans?) either way has this ever been addressed on-screen or in the literature?

While we're on the subject, how are Romulans different from Vulcans? Do they have the abilities of Vulcans for example and do they have something similar to Pon Far?

Sorry, to go somewhat off topic, but this line of thought has lead me to several questions I never really knew the answers to.
According to the books, the Romulans lost their ancestral telepathic abilties, though I suspect with training it could come back. There's no evidence of Romulans undergoing Pon Farr, so it might have been lost during the transit from Vulcan to ch'Rihan (Romulus).
About the Pon Farr issue...I've always wondered if the Romulans deliberately tinkered with their genome to eliminate it. They could've also ended up affecting the usual height and build of the Romulan race as well (shorter stature, more body fat is a good thing if you're going to be on a colder, wetter planet).
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Old August 24 2008, 12:14 PM   #12
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

That doesn't wash, we've seen plenty of tall and slender/slim Romulans. More than we've seen short, portly ones.
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Old August 24 2008, 03:20 PM   #13
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Xeris wrote: View Post
That doesn't wash, we've seen plenty of tall and slender/slim Romulans. More than we've seen short, portly ones.
Sure...but it seems like we get more variance in body types with Romulans than we do with Vulcans.
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Old August 24 2008, 07:57 PM   #14
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Xeris wrote: View Post
That doesn't wash, we've seen plenty of tall and slender/slim Romulans. More than we've seen short, portly ones.
Sure...but it seems like we get more variance in body types with Romulans than we do with Vulcans.
That's cultural, as Romulans in positions of power favour excesses of wealth and behavour, gluttony for example. Vulcans on the other hand, do not lust after power and those in positions of power behave as logically as they would at any other time.
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Old August 24 2008, 09:57 PM   #15
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Re: Telepathic Combinations - Vulcan/Betazoid hybrid?

Xeris wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Xeris wrote: View Post
That doesn't wash, we've seen plenty of tall and slender/slim Romulans. More than we've seen short, portly ones.
Sure...but it seems like we get more variance in body types with Romulans than we do with Vulcans.
That's cultural, as Romulans in positions of power favour excesses of wealth and behavour, gluttony for example. Vulcans on the other hand, do not lust after power and those in positions of power behave as logically as they would at any other time.
The fact that they get TOO big sometimes--yeah. But a generally stocky, shorter build that's kept in good condition IS more to one's advantage in a cooler climate, as opposed to a thin frame that doesn't retain body heat easily.
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