Borg or Dominion??

[Deks]

Ro_Laren wrote:

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Scary!

I've never thought about a Borg v. Dominion scenario. But doesn't it just seem like the Borg have enough ships that they can just simultaneously swoop in and destroy every Dominion cloning facility at one time? Of course that is assuming they knew where they were all located. But, all it takes it assimilating the right Vorta for that info.

Or pretty good sensor technology (which is superior to most 'regular' species in Trek ... incl. Dominion)

[Damask]

Ro_Laren wrote:

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I've never thought about a Borg v. Dominion scenario. But doesn't it just seem like the Borg have enough ships that they can just simultaneously swoop in and destroy every Dominion cloning facility at one time? Of course that is assuming they knew where they were all located. But, all it takes it assimilating the right Vorta for that info.

Likewise the Founders could create a Vorta, give it wrong information, make it get captured by the Borg, wait for the Borg ships to show up and detonate the closet star.

Though given the apparent resources of the Borg I've always wondered why they always insisted on the one Cube at a time approach for the Federation.

[Sisko4Life]

Since the founders are experts at genetic engineering, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to just make the Jem'Hadar and Vorta immune to assimilation if they aren't already. If the doctor from Voyager could do the trick, im sure the Founders could do the same for their DNA. I mean they made "adjustments" to the Jem'Hadar to fight in the Alpha Quadrant, etc. All it would take is a simple resequence and the Borg lose that advantage instantly.

[Deks]

Sisko4Life wrote:

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Since the founders are experts at genetic engineering, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to just make the Jem'Hadar and Vorta immune to assimilation if they aren't already. If the doctor from Voyager could do the trick, im sure the Founders could do the same for their DNA. I mean they made "adjustments" to the Jem'Hadar to fight in the Alpha Quadrant, etc. All it would take is a simple resequence and the Borg lose that advantage instantly.

The Doctor never made humans impervious to assimilation.
On the contrary, what he did was conjure up a neural suppressant which lasted temporarily (even less for Tuvok) that prevented the away team consciences from being slaved up by the collective ... their bodies on the other hand were still assimilated.
It was a temporary measure that would eventually wore off (it should have wore off faster though).

The Founders wouldn't be able to make the Jem'Hadaar impervious to assimilation.
Temporarily it might do the trick to alter their DNA, however, the Borg would find a way around it on their own eventually because the nanpoprobes adapt and rewrite the DNA.

[Sisko4Life]

The Founders wouldn't be able to make the Jem'Hadaar impervious to assimilation.
Temporarily it might do the trick to alter their DNA, however, the Borg would find a way around it on their own eventually because the nanpoprobes adapt and rewrite the DNA.

Which is exactly why they steamrolled Species 8472... oh wait, they couldn't be assimilated which meant the Borg couldn't adapt and were on the verge of being exterminated if Voyager hadn't given them a hand.

[Deks]

Sisko4Life wrote:

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Which is exactly why they steamrolled Species 8472... oh wait, they couldn't be assimilated which meant the Borg couldn't adapt and were on the verge of being exterminated if Voyager hadn't given them a hand.

Irrelevant.
Species 8472 was from a different dimension which was also highly evolved/resistant in not just biological, but technological aspects.
None of the Milky Way species would be able to compare to 8472.
Maybe the Voth from 'Distant Origin' episode would be able to come a bit closer in technological areas ... but biological ... possible but unlikely.

The Founders technology is practically the same as the Federations.
Their genetic manipulation tech is probably also on the level of the Feds, but the main difference is, the Founders USE it to their advantage for creation of super-soldiers while the Feds do not.
The Founders would probably rank as 'amateurs' when compared to 8472 in genetic manipulation technologies.

One other thing ... yes the Borg were in a losing battle, BUT we don't know if they would have lost for certain.
There is a possibility they would be able to adapt on their own (at least to the weapons partially) given enough time or just as the end grew near.
8472 is essentially what the Federation was to the Borg when they first encountered them ... only much more technologically/biologically developed with a higher resistance quotient when it comes to assimilation.
Give it time and the Borg will find a way around that.

[Sisko4Life]

The Founders technology is practically the same as the Federations.
Their genetic manipulation tech is probably also on the level of the Feds, but the main difference is, the Founders USE it to their advantage for creation of super-soldiers while the Feds do not.
The Founders would probably rank as 'amateurs' when compared to 8472 in genetic manipulation technologies.

One other thing ... yes the Borg were in a losing battle, BUT we don't know if they would have lost for certain.
There is a possibility they would be able to adapt on their own (at least to the weapons partially) given enough time or just as the end grew near.
8472 is essentially what the Federation was to the Borg when they first encountered them ... only much more technologically/biologically developed with a higher resistance quotient when it comes to assimilation.
Give it time and the Borg will find a way around that.

Dominion technology is superior to Federation technology and is very different. That was evident in the Dominion War and numerous episodes where Dominion soldiers couldn't repair Federation technology ("One Little Ship") and the Feds couldn't understand Dominion technology prior to "The Ship."

Where is it stated that Species 8472 are experts in genetic manipulation?

It was explicity said on screen by B'Elanna "What the Borg cannot assimiliate they cannot understand" when the crew was analyzing how they were getting steamrolled so easily. The war had been going on for 5 months, not 5 days, or 5 hours.. and the Borg had no answer to it. Memory Alpha explicitly states:

"Moreover, since the Borg learned about different species solely by means of assimilation; they were unable to understand or adapt to Species 8472's technology."

If the Founders engineered the Vorta to be immune to all forms of toxins, surely they can engineer them to eradicate all foreign substances (which is toxins, correct?) if they aren't already immune, rendering Borg nanoprobes useless. In a head on conflict, which is what this thread is asking the borg lose... Why?

1. What they can't assimilate, they can't understand, adapt to, or analyze.
2. Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered. They can be modified to be immune to assimilation, but I'm quite sure that they are already. Why would the Founders create a species that can get "sick (meaning invaded by foreign bodies because thats what sickness is)?" They don't sleep, they don't regenerate, they don't eat... so why would they be in danger of assimilation?
3. Changeling infiltration.... forgot about that? Changeling poses as a drone and does what it has to do.
4. The Collective is one mind. A single virus will affect the entire species. Remember that GENETICALLY ENGINEERED Teplan Blight that was modified to ONLY affect the Teplans? Yeah, they are mediocre at genetic engineering...
5. Uh... Jem'Hadar shroud. All of them.
6. Jem'Hadar don't have to use phasers like the other weak humaniods. They have swords and are several times stronger than humans.
7. Jem'Hadar are grown in hatcheries, Borg need to assimilate to grow, otherwise their stuck in maturation champers. Jem'Hadar take 3 days to mature, Borg drones take about 25 days(reference: "Drone").
8. The Dominion build ships faster than any known species.
9. Prepare for ramming speed.

Yeah so I'm definately favoring the Dominion in a head to head duel to the death.

[Jono]

Where is it stated that Species 8472 are experts in genetic manipulation?

Species 8472s ships were bio-tech, indicating that they have a fairly advanced form of technology in that area. Plus their ships could not be assimilated either, which hindered the Borg as well.

If the Founders engineered the Vorta to be immune to all forms of toxins, surely they can engineer them to eradicate all foreign substances (which is toxins, correct?) if they aren't already immune, rendering Borg nanoprobes useless. In a head on conflict, which is what this thread is asking the borg lose... Why?

The Vorta are immune to most forms of toxins, not all. Still that's different from having tiny little robots injected directly into your blood stream.

What they can't assimilate they can't understand, adapt to, or analyze.

The Borg don't need to assimilate individuals to learn what they need to know. They can still assimilate the Dominion's technology from capturing ships, stations, planets, anywhere where there is a computer system they can interface with. All it needs is a Borg cube to run across a Jem'Hadar attack ship, catch it in a tractor beam and blow up its life support or cut the hull open...then the Jem'Hadar are dead and they have a nice little ship to have a look at. Plus there is the old fashion, let's study the corpse method.

Assuming that the Founders could make the Jem'Hadar and Vorta immune to assimilation, which I think is an extremely tough ask, that doesn't mean they would win.

They can also the Federation, Klingon, Romulans or Cardassians and assimilate the knowledge on Dominion tactics through them. If they are really in the need to understand the Dominion that is.

Plus I remember Damar had a plan to poison the KW to kill the Jem'Hadar. So they they suggests they could be poisoned as Damar's plan was to kill the Jem'Hadar instantly before they went crazy from lack of white. The Jem'Hadar didn't take too lightly to that suggestion either, so maybe it was possible or perhaps they were just pissed that their ally was thinking of ways to kill them.

Though Weyoun didn't seem to concerned about the plan. Either he already knew of and approved of the plan or maybe he thought it wouldn't work for whatever reason.

2. Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered. They can be modified to be immune to assimilation, but I'm quite sure that they are already. Why would the Founders create a species that can get "sick (meaning invaded by foreign bodies because thats what sickness is)?" They don't sleep, they don't regenerate, they don't eat... so why would they be in danger of assimilation?

On the chance they could not assimilate the Jem'Hadar or Vorta, then they can just kill them. Wage a standard war, transwarp in and destroy KW plants, breeding centres, shipyards. The Dominion also have no way to strike back and damage the Borg's industrial might.

3. Changeling infiltration.... forgot about that? Changeling poses as a drone and does what it has to do.

The Borg are a hive mind, a Changeling could not just walk in and say, "Hi, I'm 23 or 28. I'm a Borg, what are your weaknesses?" The Borg would find it strange that they weren't part of the collective. Plus despite this ability it they still lost the Dominion War.

The Feds used blood screening and phaser sweeps to detect Changelings...Borg could do the same or have funky Borg methods. I wonder if their eye device that could disrupt holograms could do the same to a Changeling?

4. The Collective is one mind. A single virus will affect the entire species. Remember that GENETICALLY ENGINEERED Teplan Blight that was modified to ONLY affect the Teplans? Yeah, they are mediocre at genetic engineering...

And it took Bashir all of 2 weeks to make the next generation immune to the disease.

Though I do think a magic anti-Borg virus is the only way the Dominion could beat the Borg. The question as was brought up above is would any theorised virus work in practice? We don't know.

5. Uh... Jem'Hadar shroud. All of them.

Borg have better sensors, they might be able to detect Jem'Hadar even when shrouded. Once they do unshroud they would be open to attack as any other species.

6. Jem'Hadar don't have to use phasers like the other weak humaniods. They have swords and are several times stronger than humans.

Stronger then humans doesn't seem to mean much in Star Trek...I seen Sisko beat several Jem'Hadar and Klingons in hand to hand combat. Plus for the most part we've seen that the Jem'Hadar use energy weapons more then bladed weapons in combat.

Klingons are stronger then Humans and so are Vulcans but the Borg seem to have no problem with assimilating members of those species.

7. Jem'Hadar are grown in hatcheries, Borg need to assimilate to grow, otherwise their stuck in maturation champers. Jem'Hadar take 3 days to mature, Borg drones take about 25 days(reference: "Drone").

They can breed Jem'Hadar quickly. The Borg would then target these facilities and try to destroy them to disrupt their supply, plus attack KW plants. On the other hand, the Dominion can only strike at Borg planets and ships in their immediate area. The Borg's vast Delta quadrant empire would be untouched.

Plus it takes minutes/hours to assimilate a fully grown humanoid. The Borg can top up on drones at the Wadi homeworld, or Karemma, or Dosi. Plenty of races out there to supply the grunts.

8. The Dominion build ships faster than any known species.

We have no idea how fast the Borg can build ships. So we don't know how they compare. Borg can once again attack shipyards and disrupt the supply of warships, Dominion cannot do the same to the Borg.

Prepare for ramming speed.

Ramming is a great tactic against the Feds and those people because it carries an extra psychological factor, one that would be lost on the Borg. Then it comes down to how many ships it takes to destroy a cube by ramming and whether or not the Dominion can withstand losses it would incur in the ramming and the number of ships lost to Borg weapons before they get close enough to ram.

Given transwarp, Borg ships could also outrun Dominion fleets, making it easier to avoid engagements when necessary.

[Sisko4Life]

The Borg are a hive mind, a Changeling could not just walk in and say, "Hi, I'm 23 or 28. I'm a Borg, what are your weaknesses?" The Borg would find it strange that they weren't part of the collective. Plus despite this ability it they still lost the Dominion War.

The Feds used blood screening and phaser sweeps to detect Changelings...Borg could do the same or have funky Borg methods. I wonder if their eye device that could disrupt holograms could do the same to a Changeling?

People put way too much weight on the Dominion's strength in the loss of the war. They lost because the Prophets prevented any reinforcements from coming through the wormhole. The first wave was supposed to be enough to wipe out the entire Alpha Quadrant (with the help of the Cardies). For all we know, the Dominion probably had thousands of vessels waiting after that wave because their territory is so vast.

But the Borg's weakness to some sort of pathogen affecting the entire collective is so gaping that's basically the win right there. And the Dominion don't hesitate to use biological warfare. Hell, they use whatever means necessary.

I do assume that the Borg ARE aware of the Dominion because they are such a large power in the galaxy. The transwarp networks extend to all quadrants so I'm sure they've come accross them. Maybe that should say something...

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I think we've seen the Borg attacked by genetics in planted drones, and uploaded viruses. Each time they had limited and localized effect that the Borg found and isolated from the rest of the collective. Even the Queen was local. Once damaged or killed, she was downloaded and recreated. Repaired and regenerated. Adaption is the name of the game and the Borg always learn from a successful tactic and wouldn't hesitate to self destruct a Cube and take counter measures or precautions against a similar attack.

[jolau]

What about "Endgame?" We saw the Borg lose one of thier transwarp hubs and the destruction of Unimatrix One complex at least from the Borg Queen assimilating Admiral Janeway's neurolytic pathogen.

[Cyke101]

jolau wrote:

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What about "Endgame?" We saw the Borg lose one of thier transwarp hubs and the destruction of Unimatrix One complex at least from the Borg Queen assimilating Admiral Janeway's neurolytic pathogen.

We're not sure what the effect of the destruction of Unimatrix One had on the Borg anyway, so it's kind of moot. That's like asking what the state of the Dominion as a whole was after their defeat in the AQ.

But regarding transwarp, we've seen Borg ships travel at transwarp independently. Lore's ship created its own conduits, and Seven (unsuccessfully) tried to install transwarp drive onto Voyager several times, showing that Borg don't necessarily need hubs. In addition to that, Voyager used a Borg Sphere's transwarp drive to cut their trip short. The cube from Q Who might have had transwarp, as the cube reached Federation space a full year faster than anyone expected in Best of Both Worlds, well after the Enterprise saw a cube outrun their fastest speeds.

I'm guessing that while transwarp itself is fast, the transwarp hubs make travel much more efficient and speedy (travelling anywhere in the galaxy in mere minutes) than standard transwarp, which could take any amount of time. And, again, the slowest transwarp speeds are still several times faster than warp.

[Jono]

jolau wrote:

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What about "Endgame?" We saw the Borg lose one of thier transwarp hubs and the destruction of Unimatrix One complex at least from the Borg Queen assimilating Admiral Janeway's neurolytic pathogen.

I haven't seen that episode in a long time but what about that Sphere that pursued Voyager into the transwarp conduit, didn't it avoid the pathogen?

Those conduits confused me when I saw them in Endgame. If they had one that exited in or just outside the Sol system why didn't they send the Borg Cube through there instead? Why give Starfleet days of advanced warning for them to assembly a fleet to intercept the vessel? Starfleet could only field a dozen ships in Endgame to face the Borg threat. A Borg cube would have cut through like a hot knife through butter and before anyone can really do anything everyone would be doing assimilation two-step on Earth.

Add to the fact that Starfleet then just let Voyager approach Earth. If I just saw a ship exit from an exploding Borg vessel I'd have ordered the ship to power down, boarded her and taken the ship and crew into quarantine. But this is TV, you need to have a nice happy ending with Voyager nearing Earth.

[FordSVT]

Acetylhexene wrote:

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Borg #1: "What's this?"
Borg #2: "It's a shape."
Borg #1: "But it's a paradox, that shape can't exist in nature."
Borg #2: "You're right... Deleted as irrelevant."
Borg #1: "Cool. Wanna go assimilate some stuff?"

I always thought this idea was stupid and predicated on the belief that the Borg were completely retarded.

From what I remember, the shape was so complicated that the Borg would have a really difficult time figuring it out, and would dedicate all of the collective's resources to figuring it out, rendering them neutralized?

WTF? This is worse than Kirk talking a computer to death with a logic loop.

Correct me if I'm wrong or if there are details I'm not remembering that would make this idea more viable.

[Sisko4Life]

The pathogen disrupted the entire collective, not necessarily destroy it (that was left open for interpretation for a reason).

I haven't seen that episode in a long time but what about that Sphere that pursued Voyager into the transwarp conduit, didn't it avoid the pathogen?

That particular sphere was one of the last vessels the Borg Queen "heard" she she ordered pursuit.

But regarding transwarp, we've seen Borg ships travel at transwarp independently. Lore's ship created its own conduits, and Seven (unsuccessfully) tried to install transwarp drive onto Voyager several times, showing that Borg don't necessarily need hubs. In addition to that, Voyager used a Borg Sphere's transwarp drive to cut their trip short. The cube from Q Who might have had transwarp, as the cube reached Federation space a full year faster than anyone expected in Best of Both Worlds, well after the Enterprise saw a cube outrun their fastest speeds.

I'm guessing that while transwarp itself is fast, the transwarp hubs make travel much more efficient and speedy (travelling anywhere in the galaxy in mere minutes) than standard transwarp, which could take any amount of time. And, again, the slowest transwarp speeds are still several times faster than warp.

Well, LaForge calculated a transwarp conduit was 25+ times the maximum speed of a Galaxy-Class starship, which is Warp 9.6 or ~3,000c or something like that. So the Borg vessels presumably would travel at ~75,000c. However, in Dark Frontier the Delta Flyer had to drop out of warp immediately when it was 200 light years out which suggests mind-boggling speeds. The Quantum Slipstream Drive from Hope and Fear is supposed to be nearly identical to transwarp technology (or could be faster, hence why they wanted to assimilate it) is listed at as fast 1.6 million times the speed of light. Anyway, the point of the hubs would be so that vessels wouldnt continuously burn their coils out since they aren't infinite (Voyager only got 20,000 light years from one).

I think we've seen the Borg attacked by genetics in planted drones, and uploaded viruses. Each time they had limited and localized effect that the Borg found and isolated from the rest of the collective. Even the Queen was local. Once damaged or killed, she was downloaded and recreated. Repaired and regenerated.

Uh, I only recall the Endgame virus, which disabled the collective. The one from Unimatrix Zero also disrupted the specific drones with the defect and wasn't really meant to destroy the Collective (I doubt Voyager's doctor figured out the means to do that yet). But yeah that is 2/2 so I don't see how it fails. The Borg Queen's death in ST:FC has nothing to do with the collective. She died, not carried a pathogen to infect the collective.

That's like asking what the state of the Dominion as a whole was after their defeat in the AQ.

Are you kidding me? The Dominion never fought on their own turf! For all we know, their first 2 waves of ships were all that attempted to go to the AQ, the first one was the convoys to Cardassia to fortify it and the 2nd wiped out by the Prophets. The Dominion was fine after the war. The Female Shapeshifter was just afraid that the allies would attack and destroy the Great Link since they all knew where it was.

Bottom line is, Dominion infiltrates the Borg collective network. Plants a genetically engineered Borg slaughtering virus and its game over. The Borg would have to commit thousands of ships and overwhelm the Dominion before this simple act is committed or they lose.