Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

[Deranged Nasat]

Nerys Dukat wrote:

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Sorry...KAA? What does that stand for? Once I know that I'll be able to give you a more informed answer to your question.

Khitomer Accords Expansion. It's been proposed that half the Romulans, the Ferengi, the Talarians and the Cardassians all sign the Khitomer Accords and ally with the Federation and Klingons. It was a response to the formation of the Typhon Pact.

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, OK. I think the astropolitical situation is likely to be different in my world, so it becomes a moot point.

[Thor Damar]

Well, as long as it bears no resemblance to STO's timeline for Cardassia.

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, really. Macet as Dukat #2? No. Just NO.

[Rush Limborg]

Loki Entek wrote:

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Don't forget that Martok is still a Klingon's Klingon and 'there is no greater honor than victory' so I doubt that he cares about the deaths of half a million Cardassians, not if it meant winning the War.

Well, as I said, Martok would not have a problem with their deaths. I would imagine his struggle would be with the discovery of their torturous deaths. To say nothing of slaying the defenseless--which even GOWRON despised the thought of!

[Nerys Ghemor]

Let's just say I have my doubts of that.

[Rush Limborg]

Well it all depends on who you think is worse--Gowron (who, again, was repulsed at the idea of slaying the defenseless), or Martok?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Martok carried out dishonorable orders after Gowron gave them (Septimus III), so I'm not sure how much better he really is.

[Deranged Nasat]

Nerys Dukat wrote:

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Yeah, really. Macet as Dukat #2? No. Just NO.

"No", seconded. Plus there was that whole ridiculous "disbanding the military" idea. I mean, Cardassia abandon the military? That's not only incredible but it shows, I think, a total misunderstanding of the problem. First, Cardassia would never disband the military because military service is an essential part of their cultural ethic. Civic pride in the military is integral to Cardassian culture, and such a radical shift in outlook is completely unbelievable, and rather at odds (in my view) with any degree of respect for local cultures on the part of the Federation. Second, it wasn't the military culture itself that was the problem - it was the Union's twisting of it to suit an expansionist, oppressive state policy. It stopped being a matter of true service and became about stomping on aliens and controlling the populace (either using the military on them or by pressuring them into joining its ranks); but that was true of everything the Union's leaders took from the Cardassian culture- they turned it on itself. The goal should be to return Cardassia to an uncorrupted state of Cardassianness, not moulding them anew. The Star Trek Online timeline takes a path for Cardassia that I feel won't restore their civic pride and reaffirm their culture in its untwisted, "purer" form, it will instead destroy that culture. Cardassia without the military simply isn't Cardassia any more.

The goal should be to heal Cardassia, turn the traits it has to positive use- not to take those traits away.

[Thor Damar]

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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"No", seconded. Plus there was that whole ridiculous "disbanding the military" idea. I mean, Cardassia abandon the military? That's not only incredible but it shows, I think, a total misunderstanding of the problem. First, Cardassia would never disband the military because military service is an essential part of their cultural ethic. Civic pride in the military is integral to Cardassian culture, and such a radical shift in outlook is completely unbelievable, and rather at odds (in my view) with any degree of respect for local cultures on the part of the Federation. Second, it wasn't the military culture itself that was the problem - it was the Union's twisting of it to suit an expansionist, oppressive state policy. It stopped being a matter of true service and became about stomping on aliens and controlling the populace (either using the military on them or by pressuring them into joining its ranks); but that was true of everything the Union's leaders took from the Cardassian culture- they turned it on itself. The goal should be to return Cardassia to an uncorrupted state of Cardassianness, not moulding them anew. The Star Trek Online timeline takes a path for Cardassia that I feel won't restore their civic pride and reaffirm their culture in its untwisted, "purer" form, it will instead destroy that culture. Cardassia without the military simply isn't Cardassia any more.

The goal should be to heal Cardassia, turn the traits it has to positive use- not to take those traits away.

.

[Nerys Ghemor]

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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"No", seconded. Plus there was that whole ridiculous "disbanding the military" idea. I mean, Cardassia abandon the military? That's not only incredible but it shows, I think, a total misunderstanding of the problem.

I agree, Cardassia would never abandon the military, and shouldn't. What needs to happen is that the ethic of SERVICE should return. Military officials need to remember that their role is to be servants, not rulers. Powerful, so they can serve effectively (and not Federation lapdogs), but not IN power.

[Rush Limborg]

While we're at it...I'd say, Nerys, you were on to something when you reflected on how Spirodopoulos (did I get that right...?) would have been a MACO, had it still been in existance.

Honestly...the UFP should bring them back--raise an honest-to-goodness MILITARY force...and let Starfleet be what it's "supposed" to be.

It would certainly make Ezri happy (see my tale "A Rendezvous With Destiny")--and of courese, make Picard VERY happy--while satisfying Makis and others like him. Explores and soldiers.

[Nerys Ghemor]

Ha...Picard HAPPY with the existence of MACOs? He'd try to ban them as a "terrorist" group because they dared say their mission was combat!

[TheLoneRedshirt]

I very much enjoyed the conversation between Spirodopoulos and Macet re Maxwell and Picard. I think you summed up the situation accurately. You did a great job of bringing out the subtle tension in Spirodopoulos. No doubt part of him resented the criticism of Picard, yet he could not argue with Macet's assessment. Nicely played, Macet!

In the United Trek 'verse, Maxwell indeed got out of prison, only to join the resurgent Maquis movement as a cell leader and ship's commander. He began attacking Federation ships using heavily armed modified freighters until he was ultimately recaptured and imprisoned (Gibraltar's story - "Back-up").

Maxwell may have been insane, but he was also supremely arrogant. He saw himself as the abrogator of justice, ignoring his own willful savagery. I think, in the end, he projected his own hatred on the Cardassians - ascribing to them the very evil he embodied.

As for Picard, I think he is a great explorer, an over-rated diplomat, a mediocre tactician and woefully naive regarding the Realpolitik of the Alpha Quadrant. I think his later encounter with the Borg finally opened Picard's eyes somewhat, but I totally agree with Macet's sentiment - Picard screwed up royally with Maxwell, costing the lives of thousands. He should have disabled the Phoenix at the first opportunity, thrown Maxwell in the brig, and towed ship and crew back to Federation space for the JAGs to sort out.

Mind you, I don't dislike Picard. He's the embodiment of a 24th century Jacques Cousteau. But Picard is over-rated as a tactician (The "Picard Maneuver?" Please. What a joke.) How appropriate that he was C.O. of the Stargazer for so many years. It's an apt description of the man.

Didn't mean to ramble, but your segment really got me thinking. Wonderful stuff!

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's hard to say whether Spirodopoulos resented the comments about Picard, or if it was just the fact of who he was agreeing with and the situation he's in right now. You ARE right that there's definitely tension in him as he tries to sort out the role he's playing here. Even with all we've seen so far, that tension is not over.