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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 22 2008, 04:33 PM   #106
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
If I were going back and redesigning the 1701 with MJ back in the 1960s...What I WOULD do is make the pylons about two and a half times longer, but with the same thickness,and keep the (structurally-most-practical) rectangular cross-section. They're essentially BEAMS, after all... the strongest beam is the shortest one, all other matters being equal. Put it in at an angle and you've got a longer... read WEAKER... beam! Make it wider in cross-section (ie, along the length of the vessel) and you dramatically increase the structure's strength with even a small increase.

As for the primary-to-secondary "dorsal" interconnect... this is really a pretty bad design, honestly... if I were redoing that from scratch, I'd have TWO "dorsals"... going from the centerline of the secondary hull upwards, at angles, to intersect the saucer in two locations. That would result in any bending moments between the primary and secondary hulls resulting in only tension or compression in the dorsals, not in torsion at a narrow joint! (I also think that this would have given a design which would be every bit as reminiscent of "tall ship" sailing vessels, and would have had a nice parallel between the dorsals and the engine nacelle pylons.)
I'm sorry, but what you propose here really makes me shudder.
The design of the Enterprise may be impractical in places but at least it looks good on the screen.
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Old August 22 2008, 04:35 PM   #107
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
FalTorPan wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
I've also never had any problem with any of the Probert work on the TMP E... though I've never particularly liked the engine nacelles we see there (a lot of detail, but most if it seeming to be there to "look cool" rather than to serve any rational function... tiered skin structure and so forth... FINS, for crying out loud... and so forth!).
Probert did not design the TMP E's nacelles.
I know... that's why I said I never had any problem with HIS work on the ship. The nacelles were done by someone else, with the intent not to make them look mechanical but instead to make them look "art deco." (which is an early-20th-century artistic style)
It was Matt Jefferies himself who redesigned the ship for Phase II.
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Old August 22 2008, 04:51 PM   #108
TeutonicNights
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

An Enterprise redesign beyond the level of TMP would be totally inacceptable imo. If you throw away what works, you show you don't respect the original.

If a redesign on the bridge occurs, I'd rather have it more in the style of Aliens or BSG instead of them flying around in big cosy living rooms and everything like in TNG will make things worse.
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Old August 22 2008, 04:58 PM   #109
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

aloha62 wrote: View Post
I hope the enterprise gets redesigned quite a lot, lets be honest here the design has aged very very badly, the original has aged as well as a a knackered oldsmobile and looks far too 60's not to mention fragile.

It wasn't a attractive ship to begin with with it looking very awkward, hell there were early publicity shots shown upside down as people thought the ship looked daft the other way up.

The BoP is a much better design which has stood up very well, the old enterprise looks like it would crack aprt at its spindly anorexic seams if it ever tried anything stressing like moving.
Thanks for reminding us old-timers why the was invented.

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Old August 22 2008, 04:59 PM   #110
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
An Enterprise redesign beyond the level of TMP would be totally inacceptable imo. If you throw away what works, you show you don't respect the original.
What a load of ...
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Old August 22 2008, 05:02 PM   #111
Sheridan
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

I think actually the Enterprise(exterior and interior) looks less dated than it did 10 years ago since design trends have gone back to the look of the 60's. What we see today is an emphasis back on simplicity. We see this in technology(Apple for example), car design, etc. And simplicity was one of the things Jefferies had on mind when he designed the Enterprise. You can read about the design process in the book "The Star Trek Sketchbook". So, I could easily see the TOS Enterprise on the big screen. They're probably going to update a few things in the interior and exterior design but overall its probably going to have the same design style that TOS had.

If you take a look at a design site such as http://www.yankodesign.com/ you'll see lots of concept designs for technology that would fit in perfectly in Star Trek TOS era.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:04 PM   #112
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
An Enterprise redesign beyond the level of TMP would be totally inacceptable imo. If you throw away what works, you show you don't respect the original.
People who feel this way are going to scream blue bloody murder when they finally see the thing.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:05 PM   #113
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

ST-One wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but what you propose here really makes me shudder. The design of the Enterprise may be impractical in places but at least it looks good on the screen.
Obviously I'm not proposing changing the "old" design (though other people are).

But what, specifically, about that "makes you shudder?" I'm not talking about altering the shapes of major elements, or the arrangment of those element relative to each other, or the "style" of the various elements. The ship would be almost indistinguishable from what we have now (far closer than, say, Gabe Koerners version was).

I'm just talking about things which could be done to make it make more mechanical sense in the few less-functional-seeming areas of the design (ie, the "weak points" people keep bringing up... a VALID argument if there is one!)
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Old August 22 2008, 05:07 PM   #114
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
An Enterprise redesign beyond the level of TMP would be totally inacceptable imo. If you throw away what works, you show you don't respect the original.
People who feel this way are going to scream blue bloody murder when they finally see the thing.
'Let them scream!'
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Old August 22 2008, 05:12 PM   #115
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

ST-One wrote: View Post
It was Matt Jefferies himself who redesigned the ship for Phase II.
No... it was not. First off, there was no "Phase II" ever made... they had some sets partially built, did some costume tests, and so forth... but it never made it much further than, say, the Desanto/Singer BSG did.

The "revised enterprise" did involve some input from Jefferies, but they didn't build his version. And LOTS of other folks had a hand in it. Mike Minor took Jefferies' sketch and did a series of (evolving) paintings (or, you might say, just a couple of paintings which got reworked frequently.. I treat 'em as different even if they were on the same canvas, though). Then the "Magicam" folks got involved... lot of other folks...

THEN the whole series idea got scrapped... and they went back to the drawing board, taking bits and pieces from the evolved "Ph2" design but radically altering many others. Probert was the key guy in laying out the TMP Enterprise (with the exception of the nacelles which were done by the art director... presumably less as a matter of interest and more a matter of pay/credit).

So, to say MJ "designed" the revised E is... spurious, at best. He just did the very first pass on it, that's all.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:13 PM   #116
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
ST-One wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but what you propose here really makes me shudder. The design of the Enterprise may be impractical in places but at least it looks good on the screen.
Obviously I'm not proposing changing the "old" design (though other people are).

But what, specifically, about that "makes you shudder?" I'm not talking about altering the shapes of major elements, or the arrangment of those element relative to each other, or the "style" of the various elements. The ship would be almost indistinguishable from what we have now (far closer than, say, Gabe Koerners version was).

I'm just talking about things which could be done to make it make more mechanical sense in the few less-functional-seeming areas of the design (ie, the "weak points" people keep bringing up... a VALID argument if there is one!)
We are talking about a 400 metres-long, FTL-capable starship from a SciFi-show...
To be honest, I don't really care how functional or practical it looks as long as it looks good.

What you would like to change (double connecting dorsal, wider (on the z-axis) pylons) would destroy all visual elegance the design has.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:22 PM   #117
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

ST-One wrote: View Post
We are talking about a 400 metres-long, FTL-capable starship from a SciFi-show...
To be honest, I don't really care how functional or practical it looks as long as it looks good.

What you would like to change (double connecting dorsal, wider (on the z-axis) pylons) would destroy all visual elegance the design has.
Waitaminute... am I missing something, or aren't you one of the guys who was saying that the ship is GOING to look different in this new movie, and that you welcome the change?

I'm not saying I want to change the original at all... I see it as "established art" and as such I think it should be left alone. I only discussed what I'd have done differently AT THE TIME, had I been there in the mid-1960s working alongside MJ.

And as for how any of that would "destroy the elegance" of the design... I don't agree in any way. SO... prove it. I'm not able to do the graphics stuff I'd need to right now, but later on, I might. But maybe you can do a quick markup of what you think I'm talking about and show us all how it would "look worse" while far more extensive changes were made for the TMP ship which you seem to like even MORE than you like the TOS ship (if memory serves).
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Old August 22 2008, 05:23 PM   #118
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The "revised enterprise" did involve some input from Jefferies, but they didn't build his version. And LOTS of other folks had a hand in it. ...
So, to say MJ "designed" the revised E is... spurious, at best. He just did the very first pass on it, that's all.
And yet, what they started to built for the new show looked remarkably like Jefferies proposed re-design.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:25 PM   #119
Eric Cheung
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

[quote=Cary L. Brown;1975610]
ST-One wrote: View Post
But what, specifically, about that "makes you shudder?" I'm not talking about altering the shapes of major elements, or the arrangment of those element relative to each other, or the "style" of the various elements. The ship would be almost indistinguishable from what we have now (far closer than, say, Gabe Koerners version was).
The goal that Roddenberry had when he commissioned the design for the Enterprise, and the this was the same goal when they designed Deep Space Nine, was that someone have the TV on in the background and from the corner of your eye you'd instantly know that you were watching Star Trek.

The impression I get from the way you describe your design is that that would not be true. What you've described would have the pylons obscuring the rest of the ship from view in a lot of angles and the neck doesn't need to be separated into two parts. If you really wanted it to be more stable-looking it could be like the neck of the 1701-D. The general shape of the ship would be lost in your design though.

The basic design looks good and is practical, in roughly equal measure. Considering that it's a movie that's pretty good. Function generally follows form, but here they seem roughly equal. Most of the changes likely to be made for the movie are cosmetic and would preserve the general shape of the ship but bringing it up to current ideas of what such a ship might look like 250 years from now.
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Old August 22 2008, 05:31 PM   #120
ST-One
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Re: Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Waitaminute... am I missing something, or aren't you one of the guys who was saying that the ship is GOING to look different in this new movie, and that you welcome the change?
I was.
I do.
Why the confusion?

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
I'm not saying I want to change the original at all... I see it as "established art" and as such I think it should be left alone. I only discussed what I'd have done differently AT THE TIME, had I been there in the mid-1960s working alongside MJ.
So, you do want to change 'established art'

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
And as for how any of that would "destroy the elegance" of the design... I don't agree in any way. SO... prove it. I'm not able to do the graphics stuff I'd need to right now, but later on, I might. But maybe you can do a quick markup of what you think I'm talking about and show us all how it would "look worse" while far more extensive changes were made for the TMP ship which you seem to like even MORE than you like the TOS ship (if memory serves).
I'm not going to put any effort in the sheer butchering of the Enterprise you would like to have done.

The changes made to the Enterprise for Phase II, and later TMP, made the design even more visually pleasing, more elegant - great work by great designers, who knew what they had to do to improve the design without destroying or disregarding it. They knew when they had to let form be form and to ignore function.
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