RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,444
Posts: 5,507,707
Members: 25,134
Currently online: 410
Newest member: xunixan

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Sports and Fitness

Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 17 2008, 01:39 PM   #31
Neroon
Mod of balance
 
Neroon's Avatar
 
Location: On my ship the Rocinante
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

What is the record for most individual golds in a single Olympic games? I know that Spitz had only 4 out of his famous 7 golds in Munich. I'm not sure how many of Phelps' this year were individuals. Eric Heiden picked up 5 inidvidual golds in a winter games way back when. And I think Bonnie Blair did similarly after that.

None of this is meant to demean Phelps' achievement in ANY way though. He had a great team, no question, but he still had an inordinate amount of pressure on him.
__________________
"The greatest tales are always over far too soon for those who truly appreciate them."
- Jef Murray
Neroon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2008, 08:48 PM   #32
nevermore
Admiral
 
nevermore's Avatar
 
Location: The Land of Pleasant Living
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

^He won 5 this year. 4 individual golds in 2004.

Overall, his 16 medals is second to a Soviet gymnast, who has 18 over 3 games. So, he needs 3 in 2012 to surpass that.
__________________
What is a country without the shackles of it's past?
nevermore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2008, 10:10 PM   #33
Jolly Old Krampus
Vice Admiral
 
Jolly Old Krampus's Avatar
 
Location: Gryffindorian
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

gblews wrote: View Post
Drone36929 wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Yes, and it is for all the reasons you list above that he is the fastest swimmer in the world or maybe even of his generation, but all the over the top gushing about him being the "epitome of athletic prowess" , and 'the greatest athlete of all time' is ridiculous. So what does that make Mark Spitz who only won one less?

Makes him a poor guy whose feats were accomplished before the broadcast, print, and internet hype machines had the far ranging power they do now.
Do I sense jealousy here?
No, but I sense you missed the point (I'm glad you laughed after writing that). He is a great swimmer who has accomplished something great and yes, he probably is the epitome of athletic prowess -- for a swimmer.

But the "epitome of athletic prowess" (in general), as you called him, the greatest athlete of all time as others have, uh, he is a great swimmer.
Speaking of missing the point, I believe you have done that as well. I was simply stating my own opinion. It seems to me you have nothing of value to contribute to this discussion, other than to contradict other people. You clearly disagreed when I stated my opinion of M. Phelps' athletic prowess without really stating why or backing it up with facts, which I have. Then you retracted by acknowledging that Phelps has the athletic prowess for a swimmer. It's like saying, "I don't like cheesecake; therefore, all cheesecake eaters suck." In such case, why don't you move along and get off my thread.

EDIT:

I would just like to quote the following from an article I read in the paper this morning:

Nine days, 17 swims. Five individual events, (to answer Neroon's question) three relays. Eight gold medals, seven world records.
__________________
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
--Bilbo Baggins, LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring

Last edited by Jolly Old Krampus; August 17 2008 at 10:23 PM.
Jolly Old Krampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2008, 10:31 PM   #34
Neroon
Mod of balance
 
Neroon's Avatar
 
Location: On my ship the Rocinante
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

Thanks for the clarification on how many individual golds Phelps has won.

As to the hyperbole being tossed around in describing his achievements, it's more than understandable. Swimming is an incredibly tough discipline, measured in very fine and precise units. Races and medals are won or lost by hundredths of a second, just ask Dara Torres or Phelps himself. It's a sport requiring a complete workout of the body, as people like Bo Jackson can attest. It's of course impossible to denote a specific person as "the greatest athlete of all time", because there are too may eras - and influences - to crystalize it into one answer. There are just too many candidates for the title.

But any discussion MUST include Michael Phelps, or the argument is completely invalid.
__________________
"The greatest tales are always over far too soon for those who truly appreciate them."
- Jef Murray
Neroon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2008, 11:08 PM   #35
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

Neroon wrote: View Post
Thanks for the clarification on how many individual golds Phelps has won.

As to the hyperbole being tossed around in describing his achievements, it's more than understandable. Swimming is an incredibly tough discipline, measured in very fine and precise units. Races and medals are won or lost by hundredths of a second, just ask Dara Torres or Phelps himself. It's a sport requiring a complete workout of the body,
Yes, and the same can be said of Track and Field athletes, specifically runners, particularly sprinters. I think sprinters are in a more difficult sport generally than swimmers, so are boxers and wrestlers (Greco-Roman not that foolishness on the CW).

All of aforementioned have to carry their own weight under the full brunt of gravity and in the case of the boxers and wrestlers, also fight an opponent -- swimmers don't. Additionally, swimmers have the benefit of performing in something like a zero g enviornment. Its no coincidence that people with injuries rehab in pools, its easier to move and provides less wear and tear on the body.
But any discussion MUST include Michael Phelps, or the argument is completely invalid.
Because other athletes have to fight the full brunt of gravity, while fighting other athletes, while still having to perform, I don't know any swimmer I'de list in my top ten greatest athlete. Now if we're talking about top ten aerobic athletes or best low impact cardio athletes, okay now we're talking swimmers. I don't put swimming on the same level as rhythmic gymnastics, but it ain't all that far away.


__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2008, 11:51 PM   #36
Neroon
Mod of balance
 
Neroon's Avatar
 
Location: On my ship the Rocinante
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

I am not attempting to elevate swimmers above track & field athletes; simply that swimmers are at least an even accounting. You can discount the fact that swimmers are buoyed by the medium in which they perform, yet track stars for example doesn't have to worry about being drowned when they stop their motions. What happens to Carl Lewis if he stops his sprinting? He simply can sit down or stand and expend no more energy until such time as he's recovered. Any swimmer has to keep going or rely upon someone else to get them out of the water. So the medium you fele gives swimkmers an unfair advantage at the same time saddles them with a greater challenge simply for living. Each one has its own pros and cons, it's true.... but they tend to balance each other out rather than giving the edge to one or the other.

Sorry, I can't demote Phelps just because he's a swimmer.
__________________
"The greatest tales are always over far too soon for those who truly appreciate them."
- Jef Murray
Neroon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 12:29 AM   #37
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

Neroon wrote: View Post
I am not attempting to elevate swimmers above track & field athletes; simply that swimmers are at least an even accounting. You can discount the fact that swimmers are buoyed by the medium in which they perform, yet track stars for example doesn't have to worry about being drowned when they stop their motions. What happens to Carl Lewis if he stops his sprinting? He simply can sit down or stand and expend no more energy until such time as he's recovered. Any swimmer has to keep going or rely upon someone else to get them out of the water. So the medium you fele gives swimkmers an unfair advantage at the same time saddles them with a greater challenge simply for living. Each one has its own pros and cons, it's true.... but they tend to balance each other out rather than giving the edge to one or the other.

Sorry, I can't demote Phelps just because he's a swimmer.
Well people have died after running a marathon and I've never any swimmer get hurt like Alberto Jauntorena was the poor guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9RSScXe1gA

But I'd certatinly rank Usain Bolt's 100m dash victory ahead of most of Phelp's races and Bolt just started running the 100m dash recently and he's already got two world records in the event.

And of course that doesn't diminsh what Phelps, but I'm a long standing track and field fan.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 12:51 AM   #38
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

TheArsenal wrote: View Post
flamingliberal wrote: View Post
He's just a ridiculously hard trainer who happened to be born with the right body, including a literally freakish aerobic capacity. The latter is why he can recover as quickly as he can and why he can excel in an unprecedented program.
His build is freakish. But freakish in the way Frankenstein would have been if designed by swim coaches. He's double jointed which gives him that crazy power in his turns, has the wing span of a plane, and flippers with unprecedented amount of flexibility instead of feet.

Almost literally built for the sport.
Since I watch Olympic coverage on CBC, we've been nearly Phelps-free. And thank goodness, because the one look I got at him makes me wonder about some of the things people say ("ooh, he's sexy...").

Ick. I don't find him "sexy." I find him rather creepy-looking, his ears stick out, and the expression on his face during one of the medal ceremonies appeared to be one of utter boredom ("ho hum, another one...").

And no, this is not sour grapes that Canada hasn't done well in swimming this time. We have done well in rowing and women's wrestling, so we've also got people to be pleased with. But nobody is putting them up on exaggerated pedestals or featuring them at the expense of other equally deserving athletes.

I think it's neat that Jamaican athletes did so well in the 100-m dash. Both men and women taking gold... they really have something to be proud of.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 01:38 AM   #39
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

Neroon wrote: View Post
I am not attempting to elevate swimmers above track & field athletes; simply that swimmers are at least an even accounting. You can discount the fact that swimmers are buoyed by the medium in which they perform, yet track stars for example doesn't have to worry about being drowned when they stop their motions. What happens to Carl Lewis if he stops his sprinting? He simply can sit down or stand and expend no more energy until such time as he's recovered. Any swimmer has to keep going or rely upon someone else to get them out of the water. So the medium you fele gives swimkmers an unfair advantage at the same time saddles them with a greater challenge simply for living. Each one has its own pros and cons, it's true.... but they tend to balance each other out rather than giving the edge to one or the other.

Sorry, I can't demote Phelps just because he's a swimmer.
I think you're really reaching here. What Olympic swimmer worries about drowning? Much lesser swimmers than Olympians aren't even concerned about drowning. But have you ever seen a sprinter pull or tear a muscle going at full speed? Not only do they have to be concerned with stopping before further injury occurs, they have to worry about falling. Ever seen a hurdler fall? That is almost always horrendous.

If a swimmer pulls or tears a muscle, I would imagine they'd just stop and start to float on their own, or grab one of those lines marking the lanes. There is virtually no chance they'll actually drown with thousands of people around.

Swimming is a nice little sport, certainly deserving of being in the Olympics, and Phelps' accomplishment is noteworthy, but lets keep it in perspective. For instance, in 1968 Bob Beamon long jumped over 29 feet. At the time the Holy Grail for long jumpers was 24 feet if I recall correctly. Today, 40 years later, long jumpers are still a foot (more or less) away from matching what Beamon did. Many speculated that Beamon killed the event with that jump -- and for many years that was true. But we don't hear Beamon being called superhuman, yet what he did is a lot closer to "superhuman" than what Phelps has done.

Did any of the records Phelps set this Olympics compare to Beamon's? I don't think so. Congrats to him for his 8 gold medals, but they were in swimming so let there be an end to all the "metahuman" foolishness.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 01:45 AM   #40
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

As a swimmer, he is phenomenal. But I don't think his swimming abilities make him some kind of super human.

His diet and metabolism, however, absolutely blow my mind.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 01:54 AM   #41
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

For instance, in 1968 Bob Beamon long jumped over 29 feet. At the time the Holy Grail for long jumpers was 24 feet if I recall correctly. Today, 40 years later, long jumpers are still a foot (more or less) away from matching what Beamon did. Many speculated that Beamon killed the event with that jump -- and for many years that was true. But we don't hear Beamon being called superhuman, yet what he did is a lot closer to "superhuman" than what Phelps has done.
No, there were jumpers in Beamon's era jumping 27 feet. World records in the long jump are alittle on the rare side it took some 25 years for Ralph Boston to beat Jesse Owens' long jump record that he set in 1935 and it was 22 years between Beamon's record and Mike Powell's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_jump#Men

And speaking of Jesse Owens he did set three worlds and equalled a fourth world record in 45 minutes, nobody in any other sport has ever equalled that performance that I know of.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 03:35 AM   #42
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

DWF wrote: View Post
For instance, in 1968 Bob Beamon long jumped over 29 feet. At the time the Holy Grail for long jumpers was 24 feet if I recall correctly. Today, 40 years later, long jumpers are still a foot (more or less) away from matching what Beamon did. Many speculated that Beamon killed the event with that jump -- and for many years that was true. But we don't hear Beamon being called superhuman, yet what he did is a lot closer to "superhuman" than what Phelps has done.
No, there were jumpers in Beamon's era jumping 27 feet. World records in the long jump are alittle on the rare side it took some 25 years for Ralph Boston to beat Jesse Owens' long jump record that he set in 1935 and it was 22 years between Beamon's record and Mike Powell's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_jump#Men
Thanks for the update. Obviously I don't follow Track like I used to. Still there has been little that has happened in any sport to match the magnitude of what Beamon did, when he did it.

I suppose I could be wrong but don't believe anyone was jumping 27 feet in 1968 or even 26 feet. In fact, I think it was some time before anyone jumped 25 ft. If I'm wrong on this let me know because I'm just going by memory.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 04:14 AM   #43
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

gblews wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
For instance, in 1968 Bob Beamon long jumped over 29 feet. At the time the Holy Grail for long jumpers was 24 feet if I recall correctly. Today, 40 years later, long jumpers are still a foot (more or less) away from matching what Beamon did. Many speculated that Beamon killed the event with that jump -- and for many years that was true. But we don't hear Beamon being called superhuman, yet what he did is a lot closer to "superhuman" than what Phelps has done.
No, there were jumpers in Beamon's era jumping 27 feet. World records in the long jump are alittle on the rare side it took some 25 years for Ralph Boston to beat Jesse Owens' long jump record that he set in 1935 and it was 22 years between Beamon's record and Mike Powell's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_jump#Men
Thanks for the update. Obviously I don't follow Track like I used to. Still there has been little that has happened in any sport to match the magnitude of what Beamon did, when he did it.

I suppose I could be wrong but don't believe anyone was jumping 27 feet in 1968 or even 26 feet. In fact, I think it was some time before anyone jumped 25 ft. If I'm wrong on this let me know because I'm just going by memory.
Edwin Gourdin was the first over 25 feet and that was in 1923. When Ralph Boston and Igor Ter-Ovanesyan were passing the world record between they were regularally jumping over 27 feet.

Beamon's record was incredible but he wasn't able to jump beyond 26 feet after it. Carl Lewis however has a number of jumps 28 feet or more.

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lis...id=M&year=2008

8.9529-4 1/2Mike Powell (US)08/30/918.90(A)29-2 1/2Bob Beamon (US)10/18/688.8729-1 1/2Carl Lewis (US) !08/30/918.86(A)29-1Robert Emmiyan (SU)05/22/878.8429-0----Lewis !12/31/088.7928-10 1/4----Lewis06/19/83i----Lewis01/27/848.7628-9----Lewis07/24/82----Lewis07/18/888.7528-8 1/2----Lewis08/16/87
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 04:49 AM   #44
Jolly Old Krampus
Vice Admiral
 
Jolly Old Krampus's Avatar
 
Location: Gryffindorian
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

gblews wrote: View Post
Neroon wrote: View Post
I am not attempting to elevate swimmers above track & field athletes; simply that swimmers are at least an even accounting. You can discount the fact that swimmers are buoyed by the medium in which they perform, yet track stars for example doesn't have to worry about being drowned when they stop their motions. What happens to Carl Lewis if he stops his sprinting? He simply can sit down or stand and expend no more energy until such time as he's recovered. Any swimmer has to keep going or rely upon someone else to get them out of the water. So the medium you fele gives swimkmers an unfair advantage at the same time saddles them with a greater challenge simply for living. Each one has its own pros and cons, it's true.... but they tend to balance each other out rather than giving the edge to one or the other.

Sorry, I can't demote Phelps just because he's a swimmer.
I think you're really reaching here. What Olympic swimmer worries about drowning? Much lesser swimmers than Olympians aren't even concerned about drowning. But have you ever seen a sprinter pull or tear a muscle going at full speed? Not only do they have to be concerned with stopping before further injury occurs, they have to worry about falling. Ever seen a hurdler fall? That is almost always horrendous.

If a swimmer pulls or tears a muscle, I would imagine they'd just stop and start to float on their own, or grab one of those lines marking the lanes. There is virtually no chance they'll actually drown with thousands of people around.

Swimming is a nice little sport, certainly deserving of being in the Olympics, and Phelps' accomplishment is noteworthy, but lets keep it in perspective. For instance, in 1968 Bob Beamon long jumped over 29 feet. At the time the Holy Grail for long jumpers was 24 feet if I recall correctly. Today, 40 years later, long jumpers are still a foot (more or less) away from matching what Beamon did. Many speculated that Beamon killed the event with that jump -- and for many years that was true. But we don't hear Beamon being called superhuman, yet what he did is a lot closer to "superhuman" than what Phelps has done.

Did any of the records Phelps set this Olympics compare to Beamon's? I don't think so. Congrats to him for his 8 gold medals, but they were in swimming so let there be an end to all the "metahuman" foolishness.
You know, there is a word called "exaggeration." Feel free to look it up. When I likened M. Phelps to a superhuman we only read about in comic books, I was, of course, exaggerating.

You, on the other hand, have constantly dismissed M. Phelps' athletic achievements as if they were insignificant, or at worst, non-existent. That simply is NOT the case here.

From my perspective, all I'm saying is that I have more respect and admiration for M. Phelps (as I do for so many Olympic athletes and swimmers) than these so-called superstar American baseball/basketball/football players that many people seem to worship. To each his own, I suppose. One man's hero is another man's villain.
__________________
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
--Bilbo Baggins, LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring
Jolly Old Krampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2008, 05:05 AM   #45
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: Michael Phelps - Is he human or metahuman?

Drone36929 wrote: View Post
You know, there is a word called "exaggeration." Feel free to look it up. When I likened M. Phelps to a superhuman we only read about in comic books, I was, of course, exaggerating.

You, on the other hand, have constantly dismissed M. Phelps' athletic achievements as if they were insignificant, or at worst, non-existent. That simply is NOT the case here.

From my perspective, all I'm saying is that I have more respect and admiration for M. Phelps (as I do for so many Olympic athletes and swimmers) than these so-called superstar American baseball/basketball/football players that many people seem to worship. To each his own, I suppose. One man's hero is another man's villain.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
michael phelps, olympics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.