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Old September 3 2008, 05:23 AM   #346
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^I will when & if I have the inclination to thrust myself into the story more thoroughly. I have no doubt that there is a lot of depth there to be explored. Personally, I was more interested in getting the story itself than in soaking up all of the visual details.
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Old September 3 2008, 07:40 AM   #347
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
^I will when & if I have the inclination to thrust myself into the story more thoroughly. I have no doubt that there is a lot of depth there to be explored. Personally, I was more interested in getting the story itself than in soaking up all of the visual details.
Trouble is, the story is IN the visual details. The dialogue only tells part of it. If you don't take in the whole thing, you're missing a lot of what's really happening.
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Old September 3 2008, 01:38 PM   #348
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

DS9Sega wrote: View Post
The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
^I will when & if I have the inclination to thrust myself into the story more thoroughly. I have no doubt that there is a lot of depth there to be explored. Personally, I was more interested in getting the story itself than in soaking up all of the visual details.
Trouble is, the story is IN the visual details. The dialogue only tells part of it. If you don't take in the whole thing, you're missing a lot of what's really happening.
Which was the point I was trying to make, exactly.

Part of what makes Watchmen unusual is not that there's a lot of detail there, but that ALL of the detail is there for a purpose. Some books will put in friends of the artist in background scenes... "Easter eggs" or whatever... but there's nothing like that in Watchmen as far as I can determine. Everything... every single line, every color choice, every "camera perspective" ... ALL OF IT... its there due to a well-thought-through process. It all has meaning.

That's why some of us... and mainly those who are really big fans of the story... are "bugged" by what might seem to other folks to be "trivial changes." And why the suggestions of things like "Well, these folks are heroes so they need to be bad-asses" just rubs SOOOOOO wrongly.

The fact that Dan Dreiberg isn't "classically heroic" is CENTRAL to who this guy is. Making him fit and "bad-ass" totally changes the character. The's a 50-ish guy with a spare timre and a receding hairline dreaming of his "glory days." In "real world" terms, he's the guy who was the star quarterback in high school but runs the corner grocery today...

Not to say that this movie isn't gonna be good... just that it's, at best, a "Cliff's Notes" version of the story and you'll be missing a LOT. It's still better to get the whole story... which means looking at all the little details.
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Old September 3 2008, 10:59 PM   #349
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

We're not saying that he should be fit (which he is in the comic because he was QUITE the fighter) we're just saying that if a guy or a girl would be a real life super hero they wouldn't dress like cosplayers, they'd dress so they look bad ass
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Old September 3 2008, 11:26 PM   #350
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

misskim86 wrote: View Post
I always found it weird as to why he had to kill him just like that. Couldn't he have restructured Roshark's brain cells so he would lose any memory of the incident or something like that. I mean it is Doctor Manhattan we're talking about. The from what I understood pretty gruesome killing seemed unnecessary.

And even if Dr Manhattan couldn't do that, just who would believe Roshark?
[SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY]

Dr. Manhattan kills Rorscach, rather than what you suggest, because That Is What Is Supposed To Happen.

Osterman, despite all of his awesome powers, is a prisoner of predestination. (In fact, actually, because of them.)
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Old September 3 2008, 11:29 PM   #351
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Well it doesn't give much to the debate if every single event is explained with "Because that's what is supposed to happen"
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Old September 4 2008, 12:08 AM   #352
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Actually, he was suffering from Veidt's tachyons at that point, so he didn't know what was "supposed" to happen.
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Old September 4 2008, 12:10 AM   #353
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Oh, excellent point!
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Old September 4 2008, 05:05 AM   #354
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

misskim86 wrote: View Post
Well it doesn't give much to the debate if every single event is explained with "Because that's what is supposed to happen"
I'm not sure what you mean about "every event"--we're just talking about Dr. Manhattan here--but I think there's plenty to debate, not the least of which is predestination vs. free will.

In fact, though Osterman has virtually removed himself from humankind, it's his underlying humanity--which he could never fully get rid of, that's why he's still staring at old photographs in the desert--that leads him to surrender to predestination. Otherwise, if an individual that powerful actually exercised free will, what kind of sheer and utter catastrophe could result?

(And I think that tachyon thing was over and done with by the time he blows Rorschach to atoms; that's why he's no longer saying dialog out of order, etc.)
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Old September 4 2008, 07:03 AM   #355
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Andrew Harris wrote: View Post
(And I think that tachyon thing was over and done with by the time he blows Rorschach to atoms; that's why he's no longer saying dialog out of order, etc.)
I don't think "to atoms" is apt...to a bloody smear is more like it.
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Old September 4 2008, 12:39 PM   #356
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

There's no indication that Veidt had turned them off, just that Doc had managed to pull himself together (literally and figuratively) by then. Of course, he might have destroyed the source before making his dramatic reappearance. There's no indication of predestination at work. He just approved of the results of Veidt's plan, as they gave him the opportunity to part ways with the human race without the guilt of having started a nuclear war by doing so. Quite simple, and pretty much spelled out in the story.
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Old September 4 2008, 03:21 PM   #357
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^^^Yep, that's it pretty much. When you stop to think, a guy dumping his high mileage girl friend for an underage chick doesn't violate free will either---the guy did what he wanted. I suppose getting to blame predestination is a good trick.

The issues of free will and predestination are confused by conflating the desire to conceive onself as self-determined pure intellect and the desire for a world amenable to the will.
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Old September 4 2008, 07:07 PM   #358
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

stj wrote: View Post
^^^Yep, that's it pretty much. When you stop to think, a guy dumping his high mileage girl friend for an underage chick doesn't violate free will either---the guy did what he wanted. I suppose getting to blame predestination is a good trick.

The issues of free will and predestination are confused by conflating the desire to conceive onself as self-determined pure intellect and the desire for a world amenable to the will.
Exactly correct.

Either Jon Osterman is a "god" and so far beyond mere mortal conception that he doesn't belong here anymore (which is his own idea, it seems), or he's a flawed mortal human being who's been given power greater than what any mere human should ever have, and his excuse for his own "all too human" misdeeds tends to be "well, I'm better than you, you wouldn't understand."

Honestly, I see it as being the latter, more than the former. And that's why, when push comes to shove, I tend to think of him as the "real" villain of the story... and despite the obvious fact that Veidt does some "very bad things (tm)" I find myself pretty much in agreement regarding his position regarding Osterman. I just think that his solution is, at best, a "patch" and (like all lies) is likely to cause even more trouble down the road.

The only way for the whole situation to be redeemed would be for Veidt to eventually reveal his own complicity in things, and to take the heat for it, once Osterman is long gone. But that's not his way, is it?
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Old September 5 2008, 12:15 AM   #359
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

I tend to think that Doc is so far above us that we can't understand his perspective, hence I don't try to read too much into the predestination stuff. When he doesn't stop Kennedy from being killed, it's because the only reason he might have is because he foresaw it, and therefore it's supposed to happen without his interference. But when it comes to his own actions, just because he knows what he's destined to do at one point in time doesn't mean that he isn't actually making a decision later on when it comes to pass. He's just operating on a different level that hurts our heads.

And Doc was also only a patch...an argument made both by Glass's book and by Ozy's projections that, even had Doc not left, nuclear war was in the forecast for the '90s.
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Old September 20 2008, 10:06 PM   #360
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

And article here about Alan Moore's views on the movie and movies in general
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/hero...oore-on-w.html

"Will the film even be coming out? There are these legal problems now, which I find wonderfully ironic. Perhaps it's been cursed from afar, from England. And I can tell you that I will also be spitting venom all over it for months to come."
I love some of his works, but Christ this guy needs to lighten up a bit
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