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Old August 28 2008, 11:12 PM   #331
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Manticore wrote: View Post
Definitely. That said, I really liked Dan and Rorschach, and just seeing what Rorschach did next was more than enough to keep me turning the pages. I also felt sorry for Jon at the same time as being infuriated at him; for example, his reason for not saving JFK was because he didn't save JFK, if you look at it from a certain angle. It was 'destined to be', but it was only destined because he knew it was destined...

I felt that Veidt should have been built up more in the comic though, to really sell his betrayal. I didn't feel that he played a large enough role in the comic until the very end, and by then, it was just too late.
Adrian's build-up is more or less "shown" in the artwork itself, especially the in the backgrounds of the city and various settings and rooms near it. Look closely and you'll find that his "influence" spans the pharmaceutical, apparel, cosmetics, broadcasting, toy and self-help industries...

...not counting the "secret" corporations he's manipulated also.

With all that taken into account: it's far more apparent why Adrian's involvement in the hoax would send the public into an even deeper mania.

Imagine: You've just learned that one of America's most successful and respected entrepreneurs orchestrated and initiated a series of events that would send the world to the brink of Nuclear Holocaust, and then murder half of New York, in order to convince both the US and USSR to cease hostiles so that they can protect the world from a hoax.
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Old August 29 2008, 04:20 AM   #332
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^Veidt's vast influence is evident throughout the artwork. However, I agree that, as a character, he doesn't get nearly enough development.

For that matter, I wish the story had more of the Comedian in it. He was one of my favorites.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Having discussed this at length with the last friend to whom I loaned my issues, I think there's a bit more going on with Rorschach at the end than being fanatically willing to die for his beliefs. One has to contrast his last act with his diatribe on the first page of the comic. He holds up Harry Truman as an example of what people should aspire to, alongside an idealized vision of the father whom he never knew. In the text materials for #6, we learn that Walter particularly admired Truman for using the atomic bomb--the best real world example of somebody having committed a horrible act to arguably prevent greater horrors. He also says that someday the people of the city will ask him to save them, and he'll refuse.

Then Veidt plays Truman, and the early indication is that it has worked. Rorschach finds his black-and-white, no-compromise worldview shaken to the core. Veidt just did what his hero Truman had done--yet Rorschach couldn't support it. Veidt's plan was working, it was serving that arguable greater good, and Rorschach knew that he couldn't live in a world of such moral ambiguity, a world based on a lie. He wanted to die, so he made a big show of walking out, expecting to be stopped.
A few (unrelated to each other) points about this:

1.) I was thinking about the moral differences between what Truman did & what Veidt did. Veidt saved the world with a lie. Truman ended the war with a simple, grim truth-- the U.S. now had weapons capable of annihilating every last city in Japan, one by one, if they didn't surrender. Then the conspiracy theorist in me started to think... what if that was a lie too? What if the existence of atomic weapons is all just a great hoax designed to deter further escalation of conventional warfare? (The more I think about it, the less plausible it seems. I just think the possibility is intriguing.)

2.) Are we sure Rorschach is dead? Dr. Manhattan's last line to Veidt about him struck me as somewhat ambiguous. (Something like, "It will take him a long time to get back from where I sent him.")

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I don't know how far back you go, Corpse, but the story is definitely very much of its time. Even though Glasnost and whatnot was right around the corner, we didn't know that, and were in the height of late Cold War paranoia. Just look at some of the stuff that was being put out in the mid-80s--The Day After, Red Dawn, Amerika. People my age were raised with the grim belief that nuclear war would be inevitable in our lifetime. So the idea of a magic solution to stave that off was a lot more compelling then.

I think the story does gain something in retrospect, though--the irony that in a world without super-beings, none of that was necessary, and such a high price didn't have to be paid. The U.S. thought that Doc Manhattan was a godsend, but he really just escalated pressures to the point that when he left, the lid was off and all hell was ready to spew forth.
I was pretty young when the Cold War ended. I don't remember any of it. (My first memory of world events is a kids news article about the Baltic states regaining their independence. I think maybe my mother took a certain care to not mention the Cold War to me while I was young because she remembers being absolutely terrorized in her childhood by her Catholic school teachers and all of their Red Menace rhetoric.) However, I am a student of the period. I can recognize right away that Watchmen is very of its period (and I hope to god that the movie doesn't even think of changing that).

Although, it also seems to me that Veidt's plan would only be a temporary stop-gap measure. It does nothing to address the deeper ideological differences that created the Cold War in the first place. All it does is divert & delay it, much in the same way that World War II did.
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Old August 29 2008, 06:25 AM   #333
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post

2.) Are we sure Rorschach is dead? Dr. Manhattan's last line to Veidt about him struck me as somewhat ambiguous. (Something like, "It will take him a long time to get back from where I sent him.")
The line is more like, "I highly doubt he'll reach civilization".
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Old August 29 2008, 09:55 AM   #334
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Actually, it's exactly like...
"You needn't consider Rorschach. I strongly doubt he'll reach civilization"
And if you still wonder if he's dead or not, just look at the rather large bloody smear left in the snow next to where his hat fell. Trust me, he's mulch.
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Old August 29 2008, 12:18 PM   #335
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

And I hope that nobody missed the symbolic significance of Walter/Rorschach ending up as a dark blot on a white surface....
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Old August 29 2008, 11:47 PM   #336
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Although, it also seems to me that Veidt's plan would only be a temporary stop-gap measure. It does nothing to address the deeper ideological differences that created the Cold War in the first place. All it does is divert & delay it, much in the same way that World War II did.
Hence the beauty of Doc Manhattan's last line and knowing smile...and the last panel that leaves dangling the possibility that Veidt's house of cards might be due for a stiff breeze.
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Old August 30 2008, 03:49 AM   #337
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Reverend wrote: View Post
Actually, it's exactly like...
"You needn't consider Rorschach. I strongly doubt he'll reach civilization"
And if you still wonder if he's dead or not, just look at the rather large bloody smear left in the snow next to where his hat fell. Trust me, he's mulch.
I assumed he sent him to the middle of Antarctica or something like that.
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Old August 30 2008, 01:45 PM   #338
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^Look closer. There's blood all over the hoverbikes and Veidt's control panel.
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Old August 30 2008, 03:16 PM   #339
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

I always found it weird as to why he had to kill him just like that. Couldn't he have restructured Roshark's brain cells so he would lose any memory of the incident or something like that. I mean it is Doctor Manhattan we're talking about. The from what I understood pretty gruesome killing seemed unnecessary.

And even if Dr Manhattan couldn't do that, just who would believe Roshark?
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Old August 30 2008, 03:52 PM   #340
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

misskim86 wrote: View Post
I always found it weird as to why he had to kill him just like that. Couldn't he have restructured Roshark's brain cells so he would lose any memory of the incident or something like that. I mean it is Doctor Manhattan we're talking about. The from what I understood pretty gruesome killing seemed unnecessary.

And even if Dr Manhattan couldn't do that, just who would believe Roshark?
Well, Manhattan, for all his power, was still a human inside... human frailties and foibles and so forth (as clearly illustrated by his relationship with Laurie and with Janie before her, among other things).

If anyone ever did a sequel to Watchment (which I'm OPPOSED to, mind you, unless it's Moore doing it and he's got a story he really thinks needs telling!), the only way I can imagine it happening would be for Manhattan to be the "villain." Problem is... I can't imagine any way that the "good guys" could win. So it's best that he do as he says, at the end, and goes out to explore the universe, leaving Earth alone.

But given that... why kill Rorschach? Well, for one thing, it was pretty clear that Rorschach was, quite literally, ASKING for it. And it's also quite clear that Jon Osterman ("Manhattan") had stopped thinking of morality the way we do... remember, "a dead body and a live one have the same number of particles." For him, it wasn't much different than smacking a mosquito on your arm. Yes, you could "save" it but if it's an annoyance, why bother?

Rorschach was threatening to cause trouble. Jon wanted to be able to abandon his self-chosen responsibility to "keep the peace" and recognized that Adrian Veidt's plan would let him do so without any evident moral consequences. So, Rorschach was the only one who really stood in the way of what was left of Osterman's conscience allowing him to bail, wasn't he?

And Rorschach gave Jon exactly the "moral opportunity" he wanted... he ASKED FOR IT!

The really scary stuff in the book, to me, was never Adrian Veidt. It was always Osterman. Basically, Osterman was Gary Mitchell but he stayed "human" for a little longer before deciding that he ought to be God.

("Roshark," by the way? Isn't that one of Aquaman's villains? )
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Old August 31 2008, 04:41 AM   #341
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Kaijufan wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Actually, it's exactly like...
"You needn't consider Rorschach. I strongly doubt he'll reach civilization"
And if you still wonder if he's dead or not, just look at the rather large bloody smear left in the snow next to where his hat fell. Trust me, he's mulch.
I assumed he sent him to the middle of Antarctica or something like that.
Another planet would have been my guess.
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Old August 31 2008, 06:00 AM   #342
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

So dooming him to a slow painful death is ok, but instant liquefaction is just too mean?

He dealt with Rorschach in a way that Rorschach would understand. No compromise, no ambiguity. Either don't kill him, or kill him. He did the latter.
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Old August 31 2008, 02:18 PM   #343
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Kaijufan wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Actually, it's exactly like...
And if you still wonder if he's dead or not, just look at the rather large bloody smear left in the snow next to where his hat fell. Trust me, he's mulch.
I assumed he sent him to the middle of Antarctica or something like that.
Another planet would have been my guess.
As someone else has mentioned - the bloody smear after he blows him up isn't a clue that he's dead?
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Old September 3 2008, 02:27 AM   #344
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^I read the graphic novel kinda quickly and I didn't pick up on all the visual stuff. (It's a side effect of me mostly being used to reading prose.)
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Old September 3 2008, 04:51 AM   #345
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The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
^I read the graphic novel kinda quickly and I didn't pick up on all the visual stuff. (It's a side effect of me mostly being used to reading prose.)
That's why I've suggested not reading through it quickly. I got a few "flames" a few posts back on this topic for suggesting that the way to read the story is to read each chapter... in depth... then go back, a couple of days later, and read it over again, in depth... and then to read the "supplemental" stuff... and only then go on to the next chapter.

The little things like Veidt's perfumes and colognes being in virtually every scene, for instance... you have to wonder if there was anything fishy about that. I mean, if the guy is selling, for all practical purposes, all the perfume being used in the city... what happens if he starts putting a hallucinogenic into it at some point, just to help with the whole illusion bit for the "big show" he's got planned?

Notice the changes after the "event" versus before the event. There's a LOT of stuff that's different.

Notice the omnipresent geodesic domes throughout New York City. That's not just tossed in, it's addressed, but in very subtle ways.

Note the stuff in the background shots when you see the kid and the magazine vendor. They're sitting right outside the "Institute for Transdimensional Studies." So the background shots are at least as interesting as the foreground... especially when compared to some of the shots on the island.

The thing is, this is a remarkably rich, well-thought-through story on all levels. I know that huge amounts of that will inevitably be lost, just by virtue of the story being pared down to 2 hours. But it's all still in the book... so TAKE YOUR TIME, and read it slowly and carefully... and be prepared to go back later and catch things you'd never noticed the first time (or two, or three).
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