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Old August 27 2008, 04:18 AM   #316
The Borgified Corpse
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

I finished reading the graphic novel. I like a lot of it but I'm not sure I like the ending. I have kinda similar problems with it as I do with the ending of The Dark Knight. They both end with the people being fed a big fat lie because the main characters believe that it is "better" for them than the truth.

Creepy as it is, I find myself siding with Rorschach a lot. He may be grim but at least I think he has a firm grasp on the truth. And if humanity can't make good decisions with the truth, maybe we don't deserve to survive.
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Old August 27 2008, 04:45 AM   #317
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
I finished reading the graphic novel. I like a lot of it but I'm not sure I like the ending. I have kinda similar problems with it as I do with the ending of The Dark Knight. They both end with the people being fed a big fat lie because the main characters believe that it is "better" for them than the truth.

Creepy as it is, I find myself siding with Rorschach a lot. He may be grim but at least I think he has a firm grasp on the truth. And if humanity can't make good decisions with the truth, maybe we don't deserve to survive.
Maybe, but the way things were going in that timeline, to tell the truth was to bring about nuclear war. The price for the truth was simply too high for anyone other than Rorschach.
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Old August 27 2008, 12:31 PM   #318
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
I finished reading the graphic novel. I like a lot of it but I'm not sure I like the ending. I have kinda similar problems with it as I do with the ending of The Dark Knight. They both end with the people being fed a big fat lie because the main characters believe that it is "better" for them than the truth.

Creepy as it is, I find myself siding with Rorschach a lot. He may be grim but at least I think he has a firm grasp on the truth. And if humanity can't make good decisions with the truth, maybe we don't deserve to survive.
I don't know how far back you go, Corpse, but the story is definitely very much of its time. Even though Glasnost and whatnot was right around the corner, we didn't know that, and were in the height of late Cold War paranoia. Just look at some of the stuff that was being put out in the mid-80s--The Day After, Red Dawn, Amerika. People my age were raised with the grim belief that nuclear war would be inevitable in our lifetime. So the idea of a magic solution to stave that off was a lot more compelling then.

I think the story does gain something in retrospect, though--the irony that in a world without super-beings, none of that was necessary, and such a high price didn't have to be paid. The U.S. thought that Doc Manhattan was a godsend, but he really just escalated pressures to the point that when he left, the lid was off and all hell was ready to spew forth. Look what they were about to press the button over--Russia invading Afghanistan in 1985! Happened in our world around '80.

When I first read the story, I had more problems with the tease at the end that things might not be so neatly wrapped up...but I grew to appreciate the Twilight Zone-ish aspect of it with age and rereadings.

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Old August 27 2008, 01:59 PM   #319
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
I finished reading the graphic novel. I like a lot of it but I'm not sure I like the ending. I have kinda similar problems with it as I do with the ending of The Dark Knight. They both end with the people being fed a big fat lie because the main characters believe that it is "better" for them than the truth.

Creepy as it is, I find myself siding with Rorschach a lot. He may be grim but at least I think he has a firm grasp on the truth. And if humanity can't make good decisions with the truth, maybe we don't deserve to survive.
And that's typical Alan Moore writing... no question.

He's never been one for "harsh black vs. white" morality tales, nor has he ever been one for giving "easy answers." He likes to shake things up a bit... which is why I've enjoyed everything I've ever read that he's done. I HATE being "talked down" to.

As for the ending of "Watchmen," well... his ending is very much a "1970's" style ending... go back and watch any serious "morality tale" from the period, and they almost never end up on a high note. The most well-recognized example of this is the ending of the original "Planet of the Apes."

About Rorschach... well, I tend to agree. The reality is that 99.999% of humanity would end up doing as Dreiberg does, however, not as Rorschach does. He was more willing to DIE than to give in to a moral compromise. I'd like to think that I'd be more likely to do what Rorschach did here, but honestly, can any of us really say that we wouldn't "weenie out" like Dreiberg did?

Maybe the point Moore was trying to make is that society needs its fanatics, too... because they're the only ones with the moral courage to do what's necessary? Or maybe he's saying the opposite... that those with moral courage are really nutjobs? Hard to say... like I said, no "black and white" answers there.

In my case, I'd like to think that he's wrong... that people can have moral courage without being crazy. But there are so few I've personally met who are that way... I'm not "black and white" certain about that!
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Old August 28 2008, 01:32 AM   #320
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Location: Bedford Falls...or is that Pottersville...?
Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

*cough*1968*cough*

***MAJOR STORY SPOILERS FOLLOW***
*******************************
*******************************
*******************************

Having discussed this at length with the last friend to whom I loaned my issues, I think there's a bit more going on with Rorschach at the end than being fanatically willing to die for his beliefs. One has to contrast his last act with his diatribe on the first page of the comic. He holds up Harry Truman as an example of what people should aspire to, alongside an idealized vision of the father whom he never knew. In the text materials for #6, we learn that Walter particularly admired Truman for using the atomic bomb--the best real world example of somebody having committed a horrible act to arguably prevent greater horrors. He also says that someday the people of the city will ask him to save them, and he'll refuse.

Then Veidt plays Truman, and the early indication is that it has worked. Rorschach finds his black-and-white, no-compromise worldview shaken to the core. Veidt just did what his hero Truman had done--yet Rorschach couldn't support it. Veidt's plan was working, it was serving that arguable greater good, and Rorschach knew that he couldn't live in a world of such moral ambiguity, a world based on a lie. He wanted to die, so he made a big show of walking out, expecting to be stopped. And the gesture that he chose to die performing? It was done on behalf of those millions of people whom he'd previously claimed he'd refuse to save.

As my friend offered, he'd probably been crying under that mask the entire time.
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Old August 28 2008, 01:45 AM   #321
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

misskim86 wrote: View Post
It's very easy with todays makeup to make people older/younger
You must be watching different movies & TV shows than I have been, because I rarely see it done well, and making someone around 40 look like a teenager sounds incredibly implausible in most cases.

So is Watchmen back on? Legal squabble over?
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Old August 28 2008, 01:53 AM   #322
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Jason Priestley!
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Old August 28 2008, 12:21 PM   #323
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post

As my friend offered, he'd probably been crying under that mask the entire time.
I just finished reading it for the first time ever, and I noticed that as he was shouting "Do it!" to Jon, his voice bubble was normal, not all crackly. I found that quite interesting myself; was Kovacs returning for those last few moments?
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Old August 28 2008, 12:42 PM   #324
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

^Could be...after all, why remove the mask at all, when he considered it to be his true face? Could be that Rorschach was already dead, and only Kovacs was left.
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Old August 28 2008, 06:34 PM   #325
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Manticore wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post

As my friend offered, he'd probably been crying under that mask the entire time.
I just finished reading it for the first time ever, and I noticed that as he was shouting "Do it!" to Jon, his voice bubble was normal, not all crackly. I found that quite interesting myself; was Kovacs returning for those last few moments?
Congrats!

How did you like it?
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Old August 28 2008, 10:20 PM   #326
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

USS Mariner wrote: View Post
Manticore wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post

As my friend offered, he'd probably been crying under that mask the entire time.
I just finished reading it for the first time ever, and I noticed that as he was shouting "Do it!" to Jon, his voice bubble was normal, not all crackly. I found that quite interesting myself; was Kovacs returning for those last few moments?
Congrats!

How did you like it?
It wasn't bad, but I found it a bit overrated. It probably would have helped if I hadn't spoiled myself on the ending before I decided that I actually was interested enough to read it, though.
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Old August 28 2008, 10:23 PM   #327
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Manticore wrote: View Post
USS Mariner wrote: View Post
Manticore wrote: View Post
I just finished reading it for the first time ever, and I noticed that as he was shouting "Do it!" to Jon, his voice bubble was normal, not all crackly. I found that quite interesting myself; was Kovacs returning for those last few moments?
Congrats!

How did you like it?
It wasn't bad, but I found it a bit overrated. It probably would have helped if I hadn't spoiled myself on the ending before I decided that I actually was interested enough to read it, though.
Example #250925802395820359825092852095820980 why spoilers make quality work look worse than it actually is. IMO, of course.
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Old August 28 2008, 10:25 PM   #328
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

I knew the ending and I still love the thing to death.

It's rare that I can read a book several times and not feel bored, and pick up new things upon each reading. With 90% of the books that I own, once is more than enough.

If I'm still reading a book (from the beginning) when I walk to the Checkout Desk, that's a sign that it's worth purchasing. I'm happy to include Watchmen in that category, along with Christopher's Deus Ex Machina and Orion's Hounds.
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Old August 28 2008, 10:35 PM   #329
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

Hicks wrote: View Post
Manticore wrote: View Post
USS Mariner wrote: View Post

Congrats!

How did you like it?
It wasn't bad, but I found it a bit overrated. It probably would have helped if I hadn't spoiled myself on the ending before I decided that I actually was interested enough to read it, though.
Example #250925802395820359825092852095820980 why spoilers make quality work look worse than it actually is. IMO, of course.
Definitely. That said, I really liked Dan and Rorschach, and just seeing what Rorschach did next was more than enough to keep me turning the pages. I also felt sorry for Jon at the same time as being infuriated at him; for example, his reason for not saving JFK was because he didn't save JFK, if you look at it from a certain angle. It was 'destined to be', but it was only destined because he knew it was destined...

I felt that Veidt should have been built up more in the comic though, to really sell his betrayal. I didn't feel that he played a large enough role in the comic until the very end, and by then, it was just too late.
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Old August 28 2008, 10:38 PM   #330
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Re: Watchmen Trailer Online

It's difficult for me to be objective about the book because it was so eye opening. I first read it years ago. At that time, I wasn't aware that there were comic stories like that out there; thoughtful, political, literary, multilayered, epic in scale, and full of less than heroic figures as the heroes. It diverged so far from the monthly diet of superhero punches the bad guy titles I was reading at the time that it left an indelible impression.
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