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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 271 79.47%
Above Average 46 13.49%
Average 17 4.99%
Below Average 2 0.59%
Poor 5 1.47%
Voters: 341. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 24 2008, 02:56 AM   #601
archeryguy1701
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
One of the things I didn't like about the movie was how Harvey Dent's fall from grace was treated by Batman & Gordon as such a catastrophe in terms of their fight against organized crime. Like, if any of the public ever saw the slightest tarnish on Dent's reputation, it would throw the masses into such despair that they would never recover. I didn't like that they seem to hold so little regard for the people of Gotham that they need to be lied to just so that they'll go along with the right thing.

For that matter, I wouldn't think it was Dent's incorruptible reputation that made him so unique but rather his fearlessness. Like Gordon said in Batman Begins, what they really needed was a D.A. brave enough to prosecute without fear of mob reprisals. In that respect, it doesn't really matter how Dent died. The fact that he died at all is what might terrorize the people into submission to the mob again.
Their biggest concern was the fact that if Dent was found to be a murderer and torturer, then all of his work would be called into question, and in particular, his "spectacle" of putting 57 (?) mob bosses on trial at the same time would be thrown out and they would all be released, thus undoing their biggest step forward. Also, criminals were in general living in fear, not just from Batman, but from the fact that there was now laywers who were willing to do their jobs. If the Dent, Gotham's most fearless laywer and best shining hope, was again found to be dirty, along with a good chunk of the police force, Criminals wouldn't be nearly as scared and the city would likely return to the state it was in in Begins.
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Old July 24 2008, 02:58 AM   #602
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
One of the things I didn't like about the movie was how Harvey Dent's fall from grace was treated by Batman & Gordon as such a catastrophe in terms of their fight against organized crime. Like, if any of the public ever saw the slightest tarnish on Dent's reputation, it would throw the masses into such despair that they would never recover. I didn't like that they seem to hold so little regard for the people of Gotham that they need to be lied to just so that they'll go along with the right thing.
It was more that if his reputation was tranished it'd give the mob guy's defense a lot of leverage to call his credibility into question on arresting and prosecuting the mob guys possibly ruining all of their efforts.
Yeah, but the indiscretions of the prosecutor don't constitute reversible error on appeal. So unless Dent was found to have been fabricating evidence or some other such thing, the fact that he later went on killing spree after suffering a debilitating trauma would make absolutely no difference to any of his convictions or the cases he was working on right before he went nuts.
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Old July 24 2008, 03:00 AM   #603
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Boomer359 wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
One of the things I didn't like about the movie was how Harvey Dent's fall from grace was treated by Batman & Gordon as such a catastrophe in terms of their fight against organized crime. Like, if any of the public ever saw the slightest tarnish on Dent's reputation, it would throw the masses into such despair that they would never recover. I didn't like that they seem to hold so little regard for the people of Gotham that they need to be lied to just so that they'll go along with the right thing.
It was more that if his reputation was tranished it'd give the mob guy's defense a lot of leverage to call his credibility into question on arresting and prosecuting the mob guys possibly ruining all of their efforts.
Yeah, but the indiscretions of the prosecutor don't constitute reversible error on appeal. So unless Dent was found to have been fabricating evidence or some other such thing, the fact that he later went on killing spree after suffering a debilitating trauma would make absolutely no difference to any of his convictions or the cases he was working on right before he went nuts.
I don't think it had anything to do with Dent's prosecution, or the members of the mob that he put in jail, but about Gotham's faith in believing that good can reign supreme and that Dent wasn't corruptible. It was about making Gotham still believe in Harvey Dent.
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Old July 24 2008, 03:31 AM   #604
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Ended up seeing this with a relative as a compromise everyone could live with. Happily, this is a step up from Batman Begins and reaches average level.

Improvements---no ninjas, Heath Ledger's flambuoyantly theatrical performance, fewer ghastly lines, characters mostly make sense inside a given scene, plot and theme are integrated.

Same old, same old---superficial nods towards realism clash stylistically with the LaLa Land story, confused and ridiculous tech, hysteria about "crime."

New---Silence of the Lambs and Saw visit the DC universe, suffering hero to the max, the climax isn't (why again does Bruce decide to take credit for Dent's murders? Really? Are you serious?)

I've seen comparisons to Godfather in three different locations (Peter Travers, Wired magazine and Locusmag.com's review by Gary Westfahl.)
Chris Nolan needs to get over himself and so called reviewers need to write their own reviews. There's nothing very deep about this movie and it sure isn't adult. I was thankful it wasn't as bad as Batman Begins.

And by the way, Alfred's little story about burning down the forest sounded so much like glorying in the old counterinsurgency warfare day. It was really repulsive having that kind of note sounded for a character who is supposed to be likable.
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Old July 24 2008, 03:44 AM   #605
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

stj wrote: View Post
And by the way, Alfred's little story about burning down the forest sounded so much like glorying in the old counterinsurgency warfare day. It was really repulsive having that kind of note sounded for a character who is supposed to be likable.
Then you obviously missed the point. He wasn't looking back on that incident with nostalgia; he was saddened by it. It's quite clear in Sir Michael Caine's performance.
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Old July 24 2008, 04:00 AM   #606
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

^^^Then I didn't make my point clear. Michael Caine didn't play the scene like he was saddened or shamed, he played it like Alfred was telling Bruce something true about humanity. But the evil brigand was a boogeyman, an impossible terror made up to frighten. Unfortunately, the burning down the forest tactic has been used in real life wars, for nefarious reasons. Such a noxious intrusion into the world of the movie struck me as quite unpleasant.
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Old July 24 2008, 04:07 AM   #607
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

It was subtle, but what you're saying wasn't there actually was there. Alfred's line about burning the forest down was clearly not meant to glorify the action; he was sad as he answered Bruce's question. I also find your assertion that movies should avoid referencing real-life horrors because such references are "unpleasant" to be patently ridiculous. It was a perfectly valid comparison for Alfred to make and it was not glorified in any manner as you claim it was.
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Old July 24 2008, 04:45 AM   #608
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Emh wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
As of this posting, the IMDb has The Dark Knight as the #3 best movie of all time after The Godfather and The Shawshank Redemption.
Right now it's at #1.
Of course, that's with only 23,611 votes to The Godfather's 288,072 and The Shawshank Redemption's 339,555.
It's still at #1 with almost 105,000 votes.
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Old July 24 2008, 04:49 AM   #609
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Boomer359 wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
It was more that if his reputation was tranished it'd give the mob guy's defense a lot of leverage to call his credibility into question on arresting and prosecuting the mob guys possibly ruining all of their efforts.
Yeah, but the indiscretions of the prosecutor don't constitute reversible error on appeal. So unless Dent was found to have been fabricating evidence or some other such thing, the fact that he later went on killing spree after suffering a debilitating trauma would make absolutely no difference to any of his convictions or the cases he was working on right before he went nuts.
I don't think it had anything to do with Dent's prosecution, or the members of the mob that he put in jail, but about Gotham's faith in believing that good can reign supreme and that Dent wasn't corruptible. It was about making Gotham still believe in Harvey Dent.
Remember the scene in the Mayor's office after the 57 mobsters are put on trial simultaniously. The mayor if the judge lets it happen, it'll immediately be appealed, and the only way he'll be able to get away with it at all is because the public likes him. Again, if he becomes a murderer, the public stops backing him, and if the public stops backing him, then his showboating prosecution will get shot down very quickly.
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Old July 24 2008, 04:53 AM   #610
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
As of this posting, the IMDb has The Dark Knight as the #3 best movie of all time after The Godfather and The Shawshank Redemption.
Right now it's at #1.
Of course, that's with only 23,611 votes to The Godfather's 288,072 and The Shawshank Redemption's 339,555.
It's still at #1 with almost 105,000 votes.
It's getting there. But then it has been only six days. The real test is six months down the road.
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Old July 24 2008, 06:13 AM   #611
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Emh wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
Of course, that's with only 23,611 votes to The Godfather's 288,072 and The Shawshank Redemption's 339,555.
It's still at #1 with almost 105,000 votes.
It's getting there. But then it has been only six days. The real test is six months down the road.
Exactly. We're comparing TDK to movies that have been out for years. What is the longevity going to be like for this one later on. It might be good, but I think our excitement is blinding us from reality at the moment.
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Old July 24 2008, 07:40 AM   #612
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

stj wrote: View Post

I've seen comparisons to Godfather in three different locations (Peter Travers, Wired magazine and Locusmag.com's review by Gary Westfahl.)
Chris Nolan needs to get over himself and so called reviewers need to write their own reviews. There's nothing very deep about this movie and it sure isn't adult.
Are you saying that Godfather, a movie that highly romanticized abusive families and murderers was deep and adult? It never struck me as more than pulp fiction melodrama very stylishly presented that managed to touch on some universal dramatic/ human themes (as a lot of pulp ficition meoldrama does) - but it was hardly high cinematic literature. It's as full of larger than life fantasy figures and nifty wish fulfillment as Dark Knight is.
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Old July 24 2008, 09:22 AM   #613
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
A lot of the "dark and misery" in BB could have to do with it mostly taking place in "The Narrows."
Exactly. Most of Begins did take place there. According to one of the stories in "Gotham Knight" (which takes place in between the two films) The Narrows was never totally cleaned up. Citizens were evacuated and it was left as Arkham territory. The bridge was raised and is only lowered when the police have to go in. Therefore, no free people reside there and the mobsters would have moved all their headquarters and meeting places up into the main part of the city.
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Old July 24 2008, 01:44 PM   #614
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

^ On screen yes, in the novel though (if you agree with what they have in them) there were still a scattered few citizens living in the Narrows. One of the storylines - about the writer who was Deadshot's first death) wanted to rejuvenate the narrows with affordable housing.
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Old July 24 2008, 03:21 PM   #615
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Boomer359 wrote: View Post
Yeah, but the indiscretions of the prosecutor don't constitute reversible error on appeal. So unless Dent was found to have been fabricating evidence or some other such thing, the fact that he later went on killing spree after suffering a debilitating trauma would make absolutely no difference to any of his convictions or the cases he was working on right before he went nuts.
I gathered that the case had not moved much beyond the initial phase of arraignment. So, at this point, showing Dent be a raving lunatic, would likely have the same effect as showing Mark Furhman to be a racist. It would cast doubt on the prosecutions case. In this instance, it would be more damaging. Because of the novel nature of the charges, the prosecution would have to show a clear conspiracy for prosecution under RICO. Having the the prosecutor be a whack job would unravel that thread of evidence.
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