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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 271 79.47%
Above Average 46 13.49%
Average 17 4.99%
Below Average 2 0.59%
Poor 5 1.47%
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Old July 19 2008, 04:42 AM   #196
Neroon
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

A few random thoughts:

I'm glad Rachel is dead. Her character just rubbed me the wrong way, and it didn't matter who portrayed her.

Call me late to the party, but is the title a pun of sorts? "the dark KNIGHT" vs "the dark NIGHT" ?

Nice to see Lucius smile ever so slightly when he saw the surveillance machine start to destroy itself.

Alfred's destroying Rachel's note - another example of how indispensable he was to Bruce's life.

The interplay between Joker and Batman was fascinating. You as the viewer are forced to consider - along with Batman himself - how similar the two of them are. So in one sense the Joker was successful, because he got into our heads as well.

As clichéd as it may have seemed, I loved the resolution to the ferry passengers hostage situation. The con who first tossed the detonator out of the window became instantly cool - up to a point I suppose, but still cool. The actor seemed familiar to me. Anyhow, I loved how each group ultimately couldn't do it. It served as an excellent counterpoint to the earlier mob scenes.

After seeing Gordon's experience with Harvey about to destroy HIS life... I just wanted to run home and hug my own kids. Another image that might seem a cliché - Gordon's son still looking after Batman saying , "but he didn't do anything wrong." Having that faith that few others in the public will have once it comes out.

I would have liked to have been more convinced of Harvey's goodness. To have seen more of what convinced Bruce to have such hope in him. Maybe trim short the whole China trip and expand more on Harvey, so that I could become just as convinced as Bruce.

Very nice way that the director tricks the audience into being convinced Batman was going to rescue Rachel and send Gordon to get Harvey. I like nice little changeups like that.
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Old July 19 2008, 04:46 AM   #197
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Call me late to the party, but is the title a pun of sorts? "the dark KNIGHT" vs "the dark NIGHT"
"The Dark Knight" is a pretty common term referring to Batman. Because he's a knight (a crime fighter, if you will) but he's "dark" in that he's a little morally ambiguous and dark in nature. So he is a Dark Knight, as opposed to a White Knight.

And, of course, it's a play on words as you pointed out be phonetically similar to "the dark night."
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Old July 19 2008, 04:52 AM   #198
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Paxil wrote: View Post
Stupid concept, terrible movie, waste of a decent actor's final role.
Then you'll be happy to know that this wasn't Ledger's final role.
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Old July 19 2008, 05:24 AM   #199
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Excellent. A++

The best movie I've seen all year. The definitive comic book film. As good as Iron Man was, it doesn't hold a candle to The Dark Knight.

Ledger was terrific as the Joker, coming across as menacing and with dark humor. But Aaron Eckhart's Harvey Dent I found more interesting. He really had the most compelling storyline throughout the film and Eckhart did a brilliant job portraying a complex personality. The CGI was amazing and Two-Face is rescued for the abortion of Batman or Forever or whatever the hell it's called. Bale is still the best Batman and everyone in the cast did a terrific job. Even those in small roles, like the big convict on the prison boat, did good work.

The movie was long but it totally worked because it gave the movie an even more epic feeling. Another thing that helped was you could actually see most of the fighting. Batman Begins fight scenes happened too damn fast.

Amazing film...it's going to be very difficult for the third Batman movie to top this.
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Old July 19 2008, 05:48 AM   #200
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Camelopard wrote: View Post
That scene, in turn, got me thinking about the person the Joker did succeed in degrading: Harvey Dent.

On the one hand, you could argue that any man could be driven over the edge by such a traumatic experience. But looking back, the movie seems to have hinted that all was not quite right with Dent to begin with. He deceives people with a two-headed coin, and brags about "making his own luck." This seems innocent enough, at first--he uses it to persuade Rachel to go out with him. Their relationship begins with a little white lie--but a lie nonetheless.

Then things take a darker turn, when he uses the coin-flip to torture that one prisoner. We know that he won't pull the trigger--the coin will always come up heads--but his captive doesn't. Both of these incidents hint, at least to me, that Dent is not quite the white knight he's made out to be. The seeds of Two-Face exist inside Dent, long before he is disfigured.

And ultimately, of course, when Rachel is murdered, Batman is wounded as deeply as Dent--but does not go off the deep end the way Dent does. Ultimately, and ironically, the "dark knight" possesses moral resources that the "white knight" does not. He won't even kill the Joker.
The movie's alluding to a darkness lurking within Harvey is in reference to a very famous, and very good, comic story that goes into Harvey's childhood. In the movie he calls the coin "My father's lucky coin." In the story you learn that Harvey's father offered him a chance each night to escape a beating - if the coin he flipped came up tails. Harvey later learns that it was a trick coin all along. The injustice of this both fuels his career as a driven DA, and his insistence on playing strictly by the coin's rules after he loses his mind. I often think backstory can undermine a good villain, but this was one that really enhanced the character, and I loved TDK's subtle references to it.

And you're right that it demonstrates what is seeming to get overlooked by many viewers of the film - the essential nature of Batman's heroism in the face of loss.
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Old July 19 2008, 05:51 AM   #201
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Neroon wrote: View Post
The con who first tossed the detonator out of the window became instantly cool - up to a point I suppose, but still cool. The actor seemed familiar to me.
Tommy "Tiny" Lister, who first debuted as Zeus in the WWF. Has been in a ton of movies and TV shows. Probably best known as the President in The Fifth Element or the Klingon in the pilot of Enterprise.
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Old July 19 2008, 05:54 AM   #202
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Neroon wrote: View Post
Very nice way that the director tricks the audience into being convinced Batman was going to rescue Rachel and send Gordon to get Harvey. I like nice little changeups like that.
I was confused by this. I thought Batman told Gordon he was going to get Rachel while they get Dent. Did I hear him wrong? If I didn't then why did he get Dent instead of her?
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Old July 19 2008, 05:58 AM   #203
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Tralah wrote: View Post
Neroon wrote: View Post
Very nice way that the director tricks the audience into being convinced Batman was going to rescue Rachel and send Gordon to get Harvey. I like nice little changeups like that.
I was confused by this. I thought Batman told Gordon he was going to get Rachel while they get Dent. Did I hear him wrong? If I didn't then why did he get Dent instead of her?
Did the Joker simply lie about whom was at each location? That is what I assumed.
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Old July 19 2008, 06:01 AM   #204
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Ledger was fantastic as the Joker, there's no disputing that. But I can't help but feel that a character with as much power as Two-Face wound up being wasted in the film's third act. I'm really torn, because if he's actually dead, the character has been used up for good, but if he's alive, the dramatic arc of the movie has been ruined.

Much of this evaluation is hindsight. With Ledger's death, both the Joker and Two-Face are essentially out of the picture (along with Falcone and Rha's Al Ghul). Scarecrow is reduced to a tertiary character in this film (and he was only secondary in the previous one). It's a shame they've cycled through so many villains so quickly.

And, speaking of villains, not that this film needed more of them, but wasn't Harley Quinn supposed to be in The Dark Knight? Did her scenes get cut, or did I just miss her?

People out there seem to think that The Dark Knight is a masterpiece, a great film. I wouldn't go that far. But it is as good as Batman Begins, with its own set of virtues and flaws--and the virtues far outnumber the flaws. The truck chase was a standout scene, as were many others. I'd give it a B+ or an A- on a letter grade. As it stands, I'll have to go with excellent.
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Old July 19 2008, 06:22 AM   #205
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Avilos wrote: View Post
Tralah wrote: View Post
Neroon wrote: View Post
Very nice way that the director tricks the audience into being convinced Batman was going to rescue Rachel and send Gordon to get Harvey. I like nice little changeups like that.
I was confused by this. I thought Batman told Gordon he was going to get Rachel while they get Dent. Did I hear him wrong? If I didn't then why did he get Dent instead of her?
Did the Joker simply lie about whom was at each location? That is what I assumed.
You are remembering correctly. Joker gave the locations, and when Batman was running out, he yelled something to the effect of, "I'm going for Rachel!" I also seem to recall (not sure since it was 2 or 3 in the morning) a line that talks about how Batman wasn't going to tell Dent that he was actually going for Rachel
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Old July 19 2008, 06:26 AM   #206
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

^^ ah, that clears things up a bit, I was confused by that too and figured I just didn't hear it right
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Old July 19 2008, 06:48 AM   #207
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post

Much of this evaluation is hindsight. With Ledger's death, both the Joker and Two-Face are essentially out of the picture (along with Falcone and Rha's Al Ghul). Scarecrow is reduced to a tertiary character in this film (and he was only secondary in the previous one). It's a shame they've cycled through so many villains so quickly.
Why? Batman stories have been written consecutively for 69 years, with really only a few villains being recurring characters. Nolan has shown he can successfully introduce organized criminals, corporate criminals, psychopaths and terrorists into Batman's movie world without anyone getting short shrift and providing compelling conflict.

You know what I'd love to see? A completely original villain (or set of villains) in the next film. Nothing says superhero movies have to use any particular character from the comics, or go back to the well to reinterpret villains yet again. Considering where this movie has gone, the next film could simply have Batman struggling with Gotham's PD, federal law enforcement and corrupt politicians. Maybe the next story will focus primarily on Batman and Gordon being forced to be on opposite sides of the law while crime makes a come back in Gotham. Any of that would be really interesting and innovative.
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Old July 19 2008, 06:52 AM   #208
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
You know what I'd love to see? A completely original villain (or set of villains) in the next film.
I think that's a good idea. But if you go the set route maybe one new and one familiar. Maybe one of those bat impersonators becomes the opposite of Batman...

I don't know why but part of me thought of Bane with the prisoners.
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Old July 19 2008, 07:46 AM   #209
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Avilos wrote: View Post
Tralah wrote: View Post

I was confused by this. I thought Batman told Gordon he was going to get Rachel while they get Dent. Did I hear him wrong? If I didn't then why did he get Dent instead of her?
Did the Joker simply lie about whom was at each location? That is what I assumed.
You are remembering correctly. Joker gave the locations, and when Batman was running out, he yelled something to the effect of, "I'm going for Rachel!" I also seem to recall (not sure since it was 2 or 3 in the morning) a line that talks about how Batman wasn't going to tell Dent that he was actually going for Rachel
Okay, so the Joker gives Batman the locations, but lies about who is at the locations. But it doesn't look like the police made any effort to get to Rachel's locations, so I guess they just suck. I have a feeling it was probably the editing that made that part a bit hard to follow.

Anyway, despite a few moments that confused me (and will probably make more sense when I rewatch it) I really thoroughly enjoyed this movie. So many great performances, and it was really engrossing story.
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Old July 19 2008, 08:23 AM   #210
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Tralah wrote: View Post
archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Avilos wrote: View Post

Did the Joker simply lie about whom was at each location? That is what I assumed.
You are remembering correctly. Joker gave the locations, and when Batman was running out, he yelled something to the effect of, "I'm going for Rachel!" I also seem to recall (not sure since it was 2 or 3 in the morning) a line that talks about how Batman wasn't going to tell Dent that he was actually going for Rachel
Okay, so the Joker gives Batman the locations, but lies about who is at the locations. But it doesn't look like the police made any effort to get to Rachel's locations, so I guess they just suck.
They were right outside when the building she was in exploded.
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