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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 6 2008, 08:08 PM   #1
RobertScorpio
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Archer and TOS

We all know TOS was made decades before ENTERPRISE was. That was one of the reasons I could never get into Enterprise. I mean, Kirk and company never mention this guy. I think T'pol being in the crew kind of detracts from Spock being 'the first' vulcan and all that.....

But TOS made vague references alot about the past. Can you think of a quasi-reference to Archer back in the old show? Even in passing??

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Old June 6 2008, 08:22 PM   #2
Nerys Myk
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Re: Archer and TOS

Why would Kirk or anyone else mention Archer unless the situation called for it? How often do you drop George Washington into your conversations?
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Old June 6 2008, 08:28 PM   #3
USS Excelsior
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Re: Archer and TOS

There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.
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Old June 6 2008, 08:32 PM   #4
RobertScorpio
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Re: Archer and TOS

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why would Kirk or anyone else mention Archer unless the situation called for it? How often do you drop George Washington into your conversations?
Actually, I work with a lot of young people in the NAVY. I am appalled by their lack of our world history, and basic American history. So, yes, I DO drop historic names as much as I can..

Bun in three years we didn't even get mention of Archer. We know the reasons (production of the shows) but it just adds to the perception that ENTERPRISE isn't really part of TOS's history. Kirk is mentioned a few times in TNG, and DS9 as well. But Archer isn't mentioned in 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 7 years of DS9. I wonder why that is??

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Old June 6 2008, 08:33 PM   #5
RobertScorpio
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Re: Archer and TOS

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.
Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

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Old June 6 2008, 08:50 PM   #6
Nerys Myk
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Re: Archer and TOS

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.
Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

Rob
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Why would they do that? Fanboy rumors and rambling don't really count.

But on topic. The 1701 was out there for five years. Of those Five years we saw roughly 80 hours of conversation. More than enough time left over for Kirk to wax nostalgicly about Archer.
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Old June 6 2008, 08:59 PM   #7
RobertScorpio
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Re: Archer and TOS

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.
Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

Rob
Scorpio
Why would they do that? Fanboy rumors and rambling don't really count.

But on topic. The 1701 was out there for five years. Of those Five years we saw roughly 80 hours of conversation. More than enough time left over for Kirk to wax nostalgicly about Archer.
True...but it only took TNG one episode to mention Kirk by name, and I think the first mention of Kirk in DS9 came in its season three as well. Throw in the fact that when Decker is pointing out past vessels called Enterprise and none of them, as pictured, look remotely like Archer's ship, it is just more proof to me that who ever decided to make Enterprise was just flipping off fans of the old show, which we now know, Berman was never a fan of either. This sliding down the wrong path started, IMO, the moment they made Zeppy a drunken moron instead of the classy guy we saw in TOS...IMO of course.

As for retconning TOS out with Enterprise? The crew make up of that show is very interesting. And in their version, Kirk and Spock had a undeniable sexual tension.

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Old June 6 2008, 09:03 PM   #8
A beaker full of death
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Re: Archer and TOS

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
We all know TOS was made decades before ENTERPRISE was. That was one of the reasons I could never get into Enterprise.
Ah.
I couldn't get into it because it was astoundingly juvenile, illiterate and amateurish.
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Old June 6 2008, 09:12 PM   #9
JNG
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Re: Archer and TOS

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
I think T'pol being in the crew kind of detracts from Spock being 'the first' vulcan and all that.....
What do you mean by "first" here?
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Old June 6 2008, 09:39 PM   #10
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Re: Archer and TOS

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall
I don't buy that guff for a second. So much of ENT hinted towards their direction, even before Manny Coto came along.

Mark my words. In the end, it'll be the so-called real fanboys who'll end up wiping 60's Trek from canon. All the while claiming to honour it. Enterprise like TNG kept a respectful centuries' distance... enough time for any perceived discrepancies to be explained away.
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Old June 6 2008, 09:47 PM   #11
RobertScorpio
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Re: Archer and TOS

ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall
I don't buy that guff for a second. So much of ENT hinted towards their direction, even before Manny Coto came along.

Mark my words. In the end, it'll be the so-called real fanboys who'll end up wiping 60's Trek from canon. All the while claiming to honour it. Enterprise like TNG kept a respectful centuries' distance... enough time for any perceived discrepancies to be explained away.
hate to disagree. But the show became a fanboy show the moment they started explaining the differing looks of Klingons and used the Defiant in the mirror universe. Unlike most of you, I think the forth season of Enterprise was nothing but a last ditch effort to make that show some kind of news. Instead it came off desperate and demeaning...sorry..but its just my opinion.

And...the ratings still went down. The finale was probably, next to Shades of Grey and Spocks Brain, one of TREKDOM's most idiotic hours of entertainment.

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Old June 6 2008, 09:49 PM   #12
Ovation
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Re: Archer and TOS

Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.
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Old June 6 2008, 09:50 PM   #13
RobertScorpio
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Re: Archer and TOS

Ovation wrote: View Post
Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.
I had thought about that...in the remastered TMP version they could have put Archer's ship in that collection of ENTERPRISES that Decker shows robo-Ilya

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Old June 6 2008, 09:56 PM   #14
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Re: Archer and TOS

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.
I had thought about that...in the remastered TMP version they could have put Archer's ship in that collection of ENTERPRISES that Decker shows robo-Ilya

Rob
Scorpio
I thought so, too. Decanonize the "ring ship" and replace it with the NX-01. But then in "First Flight(ENT)" we see a picture of a ring ship on the back wall of the 602 Club in San Francisco so technically those pre-ENT ships are still canon.
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Old June 6 2008, 10:44 PM   #15
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Re: Archer and TOS

In Yesterday's Enterprise Riker boasts about the pasting they gave the Klingons on Archer 6, this could be retconned into a reference to Enterprise.
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